"Squatchers"

Well, you point out another reason why many people dismiss the stories and sketchy evidence out of hand. People claiming that Sasquatch is supernatural, magic, an interdimensional being that cannot be proven by science. Dowsing suffers the same stigma mostly due to those who make outlandish claims of abilities and powers and the source of those powers. That makes it fairly easy for non-believers to be dismissive, no matter one's own personal experience.

Maybe it just has really tuned in senses. Perhaps it can pick up on bad vibes so to speak. I've read that it could have taken a different evolutionary path than man did. And it's abilities to survive in it's environment are way beyond anything we can imagine. Then again maybe it's something not of this earth and it's not even born here and it doesn't die here either. Who knows?
 
Maybe it just has really tuned in senses. Perhaps it can pick up on bad vibes so to speak. I've read that it could have taken a different evolutionary path than man did. And it's abilities to survive in it's environment are way beyond anything we can imagine. Then again maybe it's something not of this earth and it's not even born here and it doesn't die here either. Who knows?

Good point on the tuned senses! Could be in tune with various frequency ranges, kind of like dogs and dog whistles. I would imagine like anything else that dies in the wild, between insects/scavengers and natural decomposition added with maybe a small migratory population, a carcass might be hard to stumble upon. Yep who knows, one can only speculate.
 
I hold tight to the fact that even if you accept all the sightings, videos, "super-evolutionary" claims...... You are still left with a creature that has no natural predators, monsterous appetite(vegatarian or meat), leaves huge heavy tracks (that nobody can seem to find the end of), regulates its own reproduction(safe sex?), hides its dead(isn't subject to accidental death), posesses hightened senses to avoid humans(kinda... he throws rocks when he gets the chance, steals hunter's kills, spooks folks, walks though open fields and howls like a freight train... not so stealthy, IMO).... The self-regulated population control alone, is enough to make me doubt their existence.

I still have hopes that they are real. I would sincerely love to be proven wrong on this one. Maybe they'll be open for adoption once they're out of the closet.

Rick
 
...The self-regulated population control alone, is enough to make me doubt their existence...
Rick

This is a very major sticking point for myself and also for many anthropologists. It is established science that there are polpulation thresholds of evey known species of mammal below which propogation cannot continue, but rapidly decline and the species is no longer viable and will constantly decline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population
 
I would like to preface my remarks by mentioning that this is one of the most civilized and interesting bigfoot internet discussions I ever read. We've got a pretty good grade of person in the Outdoors forums of Bladeforums.

I only comment on Senior Moneymaker, because he's the public face of bigfoot hunting on cable TV, nowadays. The nail that sticks up, and all that rubbish.

I would like to add the following to my generalized hunting comments: Unsuccessful hunters, that is people who tramp the countryside looking for animals that don't really want to be found, can often blame their very lack of success on underestimating their quarry. Underestimation of your opponent always seems to play into the opponent's hands.


Hunters who find themselves defeated by their underestimation of the opposition often find themselves saying things like:
"They can't be that smart..."
"Where the he11 are they..."
"How'd they vanish so fast..."
"Why can't I locate them..."
"How'd they spot me so fast?!"
"Why do they hang out in places they can't be persued?"
This is true, whether game birds, mammals, whatever. Educated mountain trout even get in on the act.


Underestimating the opposition is one of the most subtle ways hunters have of defeating themselves. You assume their noses can't be that good, you can crash around through brush and not be heard, shout to buddies, leave trash on the ground, glint from optics won't matter, skylining won't give you away, fidgeting on stand is fine...

If bigfoot exists(!), for all we know, he is Man's Darwinian country cousin-- a sort of "caveman", or evolutionary dead end. Why do we assume that he's dumb enough to be easily caught? More underestimation, that's why.
 
I would like to preface my remarks by mentioning that this is one of the most civilized and interesting bigfoot internet discussions I ever read. We've got a pretty good grade of person in the Outdoors forums of Bladeforums.

I only comment on Senior Moneymaker, because he's the public face of bigfoot hunting on cable TV, nowadays. The nail that sticks up, and all that rubbish.

I would like to add the following to my generalized hunting comments: Unsuccessful hunters, that is people who tramp the countryside looking for animals that don't really want to be found, can often blame their very lack of success on underestimating their quarry. Underestimation of your opponent always seems to play into the opponent's hands.


Hunters who find themselves defeated by their underestimation of the opposition often find themselves saying things like:
"They can't be that smart..."
"Where the he11 are they..."
"How'd they vanish so fast..."
"Why can't I locate them..."
"How'd they spot me so fast?!"
"Why do they hang out in places they can't be persued?"
This is true, whether game birds, mammals, whatever. Educated mountain trout even get in on the act.


Underestimating the opposition is one of the most subtle ways hunters have of defeating themselves. You assume their noses can't be that good, you can crash around through brush and not be heard, shout to buddies, leave trash on the ground, glint from optics won't matter, skylining won't give you away, fidgeting on stand is fine...

If bigfoot exists(!), for all we know, he is Man's Darwinian country cousin-- a sort of "caveman", or evolutionary dead end. Why do we assume that he's dumb enough to be easily caught? More underestimation, that's why.


First off, if any of my posts have come across like I was being an a**, sorry. I've tried not too, i think i have done alright.
as you said its been pretty civilized, which is good.

now, i agree with most of what you said, but there's a flip side to that coin. (over estimation)

just to set the stage, I like hunting turkeys.
I've killed more than a few. past few years with work, i've kinda slacked off,but I even killed a couple way back in the 80s when it was a lot harder.
the turkeys weren't any smarter, just wasn't that many of them, and nowhere near as many areas with them in it.
that's what made it hard.
I'm not a great turkey hunter, i just happen to hunt where there are turkeys(this is going somewhere, i have a point).

I've seen and talked top a lot of people that will swear turkeys are next to impossible to find, let alone kill. Why, because where they are hunting doesn't have any turkeys in it at that time. if they ain't there, you ain't going to kill any or see any.
here comes the point, and the other side of the coin.
some people will realize that its the lack of birds but, some people will start thinking that turkeys must be the end all be all to prey animals.
suddenly turkeys are planning strategy, and ingress and egress points to get around hunters, when in fact there just ain't any birds there.

that's my point, if its not there, and you've done all your due diligence, spent your time in the woods being quiet, being stealthy, staying of the beaten path, you have a choice, you can come to the conclusion that they aren't there.
OR, suddenly this bigfoot can see IR, hear what you're thinking, see in the dark,(like no other great ape) and have some kind of psychic ability to make you not see it when you see it. it also knows what you're doing when you're in the woods to play with your dog or when you're actually hunting bigfoot. they also seem to know the limit of FLIR cameras and stay almost out of reach, just in the blur out of focus.
kinda hard to kill turkeys when there ain't any turkeys in the woods where you are, kinda like bigfoots, except there are woods and forests that hold turkeys.
i cant say the same about bigfoots, but who knows, one may get hit by a truck tonight.
(to bad theres no smiley with its figers crossed because it would be right here)
 
All the hunting/stealth discussions are intriguing..... but if we aren't catching these things, predators aren't killing them and they aren't having fatal accidents... do they all die of old age? Do they dispose of their own dead? They must smell even worse, dead. How come there are no found graves?.... bears, wolves, etc... have a pretty good nose... 1300lbs of rotting meat is hard to hide from hungry scavengers.

I was an "optimistic" skeptic when I started on this thread... You guys have ripped the last bit of Squatch hope from me.... thanks for killing my dreams.
 
...I was an "optimistic" skeptic when I started on this thread... You guys have ripped the last bit of Squatch hope from me.... thanks for killing my dreams.



Well, while I feel the probability is remote, it is still a possibility that they exist. Behind every myth, fable and old wive's tale there is almost always a kernal of truth. If they do not exist, that will never be proven. If they do, in whatever form, I believe it will eventually be proven by believable scientific evidence. And not by some profit driven tv show cast. It is a pity that the waters have been so muddied over the years by hoaxers though.
 
All the hunting/stealth discussions are intriguing..... but if we aren't catching these things, predators aren't killing them and they aren't having fatal accidents... do they all die of old age? Do they dispose of their own dead? They must smell even worse, dead. How come there are no found graves?.... bears, wolves, etc... have a pretty good nose... 1300lbs of rotting meat is hard to hide from hungry scavengers.

I was an "optimistic" skeptic when I started on this thread... You guys have ripped the last bit of Squatch hope from me.... thanks for killing my dreams.

Here is an interesting bit about the population which if they do exist could kind of put things into perspective. Meaning if there is only between 500-750 of them roaming throughout North America then it might be a challenge to find one. I also read something about female mountain gorillas reaching sexual maturity around 7 or 8 but really don't start reproduction until about 10 years of age. Males reach theirs between 15 to 20 years of age. Gestation runs around 8 and a half months and infant mortality seems kind of high. So who knows, I'm assuming that they might share some characteristics with mountain gorillas...I could be way off base and have been before!

http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/meldrum-sasquatch/

The one thing I've never really agreed with was the description of them being "apex" predators. Sure something that big would have to be fairly strong just to carry it's own weight, but I really think it would be a scavenger or opportunist. I think being bipedal would be a big disadvantage in a brawl with a big cat/pack of wolves or bear. So if they exist, I think they are on the food chain and not at the top. Maybe because of this they keep on the move.

I agree with Codger_64, behind all the fables, myth, folklore and wives tales there is almost always a kernal of truth. Only time will tell I guess.
 
The "great ape" thing is just wild speculation on our part-- we haven't got an example to study in a lab setting. Not much can be said definitively about an animal, if it hasn't been properly examined by experts.

I personally don't know anybody around here who overestimates game animals. Everyone I talk to here thinks their prey is "dumber" than it really is (underestimation). Overestimation of the quarry just means to me that the hunter leaves no stone unturned in his persuit. They wear expensive commercial camo, use fancy new rifles in wierd magnum calibers and expensive scopes/binoculars, they use laser range finders instead of guestimation, and when they score with their X Zone premium tags, they hire horsepackers to retrieve their animal. Recent California big game regs have banned the use of manned or unmanned surveillance drones! In short, overestimators stack the deck so far in their own favor, that the animal has very little sporting chance of surviving an encounter with a hunter. Jose Ortega y Gasset in his book Meditations on Hunting discusses this sporting balancing act. I think every hunter needs a copy of this classic work.

Further, I simply won't concede the point that he can see in the dark like a cat. Lots of animals are somewhat nocturnal. Eyeshine is a good indicator of this ability. I don't really want to go further into this. You should just believe what you want. Yes, I have a basis for my belief, which I won't go into here. I'm not ready to talk about it, yet.

In terms of the Colorado elk hunters and their "bad feeling"... This is an interesting subject which is seldom covered in hunting literature. In this vein, I happened to be at a work barbecue, talking to a Viet Nam veteran who had become a college professor. As we ran the grill together, he mentioned to me that he served in the infantry there.

Over lite beer, he mentioned that once they selected him as Point Man, they made this job permanent, since he demonstrated a knack for it. "You know, no squad I scouted for was ever ambushed(!)" he mentioned to me.

"How was that," I asked.

"Well, anytime I looked at the terrain ahead and got a bad feeling, I just went around it, or avoided it. So, they never got us," he replied.

This conversation made some things make sense to me, that I had experienced over the years, backpacking in the hunting fields. I suppose this tidbit began to help me understand what it is to be fully aware in the wild places. I don't think we need to invoke metaphysics or the supernatural to explain his interesting and useful abillity of his to avoid ambushes. It may be that he subconsciously noticed faces peering at them from the leafy jungle, or that something was out of place in the terrain, or possibly a faint smell, or half heard quiet little sounds of enemy fidgeters. I'm not ready to explain his ability by defaulting to mystical pseudo science explanations, but I don't know enough to completely discount them, either. At this point, I just find them uncompelling [because I can't explain the mechanism with naturalistic methods]. Were you ever bone tired and looking at something you were working with and you said to yourself, "somethings not right with this, but I can't figure out what it is." That might be your subconscious trying to make its opinions known to the conscious mind.

I've walked into bits of forest and had a bad feeling, myself. I'm willing to say that I no longer ignore or rationalize this feeling away. Just because the people who have it cannot explain it, doesn't mean it (this unexplained sense) is not legitimate. Gavin DeBecker delves into this area in his book The Gift of Fear. I don't know if everybody has this ability, but I somehow got my hands on it, after a few decades of hunting. I suppose when people in war are actively sneaking around trying to kill you, you develop the ability at an accelerated rate, just out of pure survival. "Nothing concentrates the mind, like the prospect of your own hanging the next morning."


Here's a good recent vignette for you people:

Two weeks ago, I took my Chessadors out to Indian Wells Canyon, in persuit of chukkars. We drove into the canyon as far as the chain link fence of the tiny weather station. Somebody else had beaten us to the gentle closed off mine roads which climb the southern wall in a zigzag. So, we instead went straight up the southern canyon wall. Not a very fun way up to the chukkars, but also unused and effective-- so be it.

We climbed a few thousand feet up the steep, loose wall, so that we hit either the Pacific Crest Trail, or a feeder trail for it. I was so winded by this time, that I couldn't retain what a few scant signs told me. (so what, get on with it!)

Well, it's early season for the PCT, so there was almost no hiker traffic on it, and NO hunter traffic on it. We headed West on it, rounded a corner at 7K' and stood looking at an extra steep portion of scrubby oak forest overlooking and overlapping the trail. Here's the good part:

I had a bad feeling upon viewing this portion of the trail ahead of me. However, in keeping with the spirit of skepticism, I suppressed this feeling, and said nothing to my dogs. We then proceeded up this trail, in pursuit of chukkars. Just as we get to the bend in the trail that's giving me the bad feeling, my hunting dogs stop and point uphill. Clearly, there's something hiding in ambush just uphill of the trail [probably waiting for lunch to go walking by]. My hunting dogs either heard, saw or smelled something waiting there, long after I just glanced at the terrain from almost 200 yards, and got a bad feeling.:eek:

So how did I know in advance?! I state from the outset, that I consciously neither saw, heard or smelled anything.

Did I subconsciously notice something, and the only way my subconscious could communicate with my conscious, is with a "bad feeling".

Psychic power? Eh, I guess I just don't buy that.

Did it just look like a likely ambush spot for predators to spring on game? This is the best naturalistic explanation.

So, how did I "know" something was up, before a couple of young hunting dogs could? They didn't alert till we were almost on it's position, but then alerted strongly. They seemed a bit reluctant to charge into the Oak thicket and flush whatever was lurking in there. For my part, I don't blame them, and as the full import of the situation began to dawn on me, I did at least think to recall them, and retreat.

I cannot define the exact mechanism for this impression/ability, but that doesn't mean that it isn't real, or valid. I have experimental proof that it at least sometimes operates.

So, not wanting to find out the hard way what was hiding in the oak thicket, I recalled my dogs, and we retreated almost 200 yards back down the narrow trail. At this point, I'm still basically wavering in and out of denial, and so we stop for lunch. This involves spreading my poncho out on the trail and pouring a small pile of Iams kibbles onto it. As we're eating, Blackie keeps pausing and looking back up the trail, like something is up there, moving around to attract his attention. He stared fixedly a few times, and even woofed a couple of times. I don't recall the other dog saying anything. The thing is, when we're hunting, these dogs don't bark, and they never bark at birds.

As we hurridly ate, Blackie is reacting more and more to the place we just retreated from, like whatever it is has seen us, and is creeping over towards us. I'm not seeing anything. At this point, my attitude is "damn, we've got to get out of here. I don't want to find out what's over there. And it seems from my retriever's demeanor that it's getting closer."

Whatever it was, it wasn't game birds. We didn't force the issue. Whether cat, bear or bogeyman, we didn't want any of it.

So, again I ask another question, am I the only one who pays any attention when he gets a really bad feeling about some thicket or terrain feature?

I was frightened to get confirmation from my hunting dogs that I was right.

I would just like to say, that in no way do I compare myself to our veterans. It's just that he was the only other guy I ever talked to, who had this same "ability".
 
We are not so far removed from that "ability", Erasmus. There are MANY with those skills. I'm not a particularily highly educated tracker but for some reason, can read sign and piece together a suprisingly accurate fix on the movement of animals. "Out of place" twigs, snapped branches, disturbances seem to "pop out" at me. It comes with awareness of your environment... a recently forgotten/unused tool of our evolution. Ever stare at a cat in your yard through a window?.... more often than not he'll turn around and stare back. How-dee-doo-dat? I don't doubt the ability of wild animals to sense and evade humans.... I doubt their ability to do it consistantly without EVER messin up. Whatever was following you and your dogs, messed up, IMO.... you knew and your dogs knew. If you had been with a hunting party things may have ended differently. I'm not suggesting you thought that event was a bigfoot encounter... but the Squatch obviously doesn't see humans as being on the menu, so why (in so many other cases) would he risk being seen/caught simply to harass?

The great ape thing is not just a wild speculation. It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. If it was real and found to be a relative of the feline, canine, bear, etc... species, it would defy what we know of evolution by natural selection in the living world.
 
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I can see both sides (even after a encounter of my own ) of the subject. Part of me always believed they could be real, but part of me found it hard to believe a huge man like creature could evade hunters all these years! I haven't posted here much lately, and can't remember if I ever posted this or not, but I thought I'd share my story after ready the other 2 or 3 :)


Me and my brother went for a walk through our family's woods after dark one night as we often did, we had made it through the woods, and about halfway across a 200-250 yard field when I saw eyes reflecting from my headlamp, they appeared to be in a large oak near the fence line so not thinking much over it thought it was a raccoon or owl etc. We decided to check it out, but when we closed the distance to 50-60 yards it wasn't looking like a raccoon anymore, first thought was maybe a a cougar until it blinked, turned its head and took a couple steps to the left, walking out from under the tree I thought it was in...my headlamp couldn't make out what it was, but its eyes were WELL above the fence line, easily twice as high. It didn't seem to be in a real hurry, it took a few LONG steps, then stopped turned its head to look at us once more for a good 2 or 3 seconds...slowly blinked then a couple more steps and disappeared into the woods. My brother and me looked at each other, not scared just kinda confused by what it could be and decided not to go into the woods to find out in the dark!

We got up early the next morning and went to look for tracks or any sign to what it could have been, down at the creek that's just below where we saw it, there was 1 full track and one half track deep in the creek sand, I had a 18 inch Ontario machete and the track was every bit as long as the blade, about 6-7 inches across at the toes and around 5 inches wide at the heal. I wear a size 14 boot and this track was huge! But looked just like a human footprint otherwise. We checked behind the fence where we saw "it" and the ground was to hard for us to leave a print but after searching we found a light print that matched the one we found earlier in the sand.

With weak headlamps we couldn't see much but eyes and a faint outline, but the way it moved looked like it was comfortable walking on 2 feet! My after finding the tracks my brother stood where we watched it the night before, and I went behind the fence where it was, I'm 6 foot 4 and with the hill behind the fence, the fence came about to my shoulder ...it had to be a good 2 foot taller than me ...easy!


Not swearing it was Bigfoot, but me and my brother saw something..and whatever made the tracks did have BIG feet!!

True story, though rather poorly worded!
 
All the hunting/stealth discussions are intriguing..... but if we aren't catching these things, predators aren't killing them and they aren't having fatal accidents... do they all die of old age? Do they dispose of their own dead? They must smell even worse, dead. How come there are no found graves?.... bears, wolves, etc... have a pretty good nose... 1300lbs of rotting meat is hard to hide from hungry scavengers.

I was an "optimistic" skeptic when I started on this thread... You guys have ripped the last bit of Squatch hope from me.... thanks for killing my dreams.
Kind of the way I'm feeling 'Ol Bud...
 
And what do you find wrong with what this shows?
[video=youtube;MKUwdHex1Zs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKUwdHex1Zs[/video]
 
To say the Patterson film is fake, you have to accept two men with no known talent at all made a suit like that and made footprints that one expert has already attested to having "life" in them. Then they managed to get the subject in the suit to walk like that. (also a subject that was 7'-6.5" tall!) I can't accept they were able to do so. No matter what Patterson's past may have been no matter that he did want to gain financially from it, he still could have captured the legend on film. I can't watch the video above and think they were able to fake that. Of course, I don't have any doubt about this creature's existence. And that is the part I like about this mystery. You can if you are sufficiently motivated find proof these creatures are out there. You may not be able to prove it to the world, but you can prove it to yourself.

(put the film together with what is here, about the tracks of the Patterson creature
http://www.isu.edu/~meldd/fxnlmorph.html )

"Noteworthy is the documentation of the tracks of this same individual on a number of earlier occasions. One of the first of these was photographed by Peter Byrne near Bluff Creek in 1960. Two others were cast by Al Hodgson, of Willow Creek, one on a logging road near Notice Creek in 1962(?) and another on Bluff Creek in 1963. Another instance was photographed extensively by John Green and Rene' Dahinden on the Blue Creek Mountain Road in 1967, just over one month before the Patterson-Gimlin film was shot."
 
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He could have bought the suit. An acquaintance says he wore the suit. That sounds reasonable. I think the film would be easy to make.
 
He could have bought the suit. An acquaintance says he wore the suit. That sounds reasonable. I think the film would be easy to make.

Did you even watch the video? Lets see you duplicate the film! If it would be so "easy". And the prints found at the location too, while you're at it.
 
I don't know, Heironimus came out and admitted to wearing the suit. His family members saw a "monkey suit" in his car. What motive would he have to come out, not fame?

However, Patterson had all kinds of incentive to hide the truth.
 
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