SR101, S30V, INFI - The Toughest Steel?

[Blop]

I think it's more of a special heat treat they do.

The same research proved, that there is no special ht as long as you don´t see a failed ht as special.

The research was printed in the german knife magazin last year, gues it was #3/2003.

 

[ras]

Let's throw D2 into this comparison. I have BM Griptillians in D2 (Cabelas) and S30V (Ritter). If the D-2 is tempered to 60-61 Rc and the S30V is tempered to 58-60 Rc, which knife would have the tougher blade?

 

[frank k]

The same research proved, that there is no special ht as long as you don´t see a failed ht as special.

The research was printed in the german knife magazin last year, gues it was #3/2003.

Blop, what exactly did the article say about the ht?


Did it say if INFI was nitrided?

 

[Win Heger]

Edmund Davidson is a well known maker who has been using S-7 for years. I have a large Integral camp knife by him in S-7. I've not used it so I can't help there but it is supposed to be tough SOB.

Win

 

[cgd160]

The blades are more than .2" thick made of an .5%C steelHRC below 58, so it´s no surprise that they can be bend. I was more surprised of a Hill Knife, .2" thick, made from ATS34 HRC59 that bend without breaking under a side load of 500N.

Blop , INFI is is not below 58 Rc , it's 58 - 60 Rc .
Ron Hood did a review and the 3 blades he had were all at 60 Rc .

 

[wetdog1911]

I´ve heard, INFI is a "designer-steel" made at the computer. But after i had the chance to read about a metallurgical research i think it is a cheap unclean steel loaded with anything you ever heard about as good alloy. Most components are so small, that they don´t have an effect on the steel. In general it is a .5%C and 8%Cr MoV a touch of W and some impurities like Cu. You might mention the other under .05% alloys but it´s much to boring to me.

The blades are more than .2" thick made of an .5%C steelHRC below 58, so it´s no surprise that they can be bend. I was more surprised of a Hill Knife, .2" thick, made from ATS34 HRC59 that bend without breaking under a side load of 500N.

Boy, I guess I'd better go sell my Busses quick before everyone else finds out they are made of cheap unclean steel. It's amazing he doesn't go broke replacing knives with his unconditional guarantee and using cheap steel. This must also account for the long wait for new knives and the high resale value on the secondary market. Go figure.

Rob

 

[ras]

All things being equal, with D2 tempered to 60-61 and S30V tempered to 58-60, which is the tougher blade?

 

[t1mpani]

Their performances as steels tend to be remarkably similar, so I'd say the S30V within the parameters you list, just for being softer. Of course, that's toughness in terms of resitance to shock and impact. If you mean tougher in terms of less likely to deform, it'll be the one that's treated to be harder--where it will have high resistance to edge deformation, but when its limits are reached it will be more likely to chip than to indent.

I'm going to go play with some boring old 1084 now.

 

[wetdog1911]

All things being equal, with D2 tempered to 60-61 and S30V tempered to 58-60, which is the tougher blade?

I think Cliff could really give the best answer on this. I don't know, but I'll bet you get a bunch of opinions.

Rob

 

[mete]

I find this whole thread amusing. I f you want to talk about toughness you better first carefully define exactly what you mean and how you will test it. Even standard metallurgical toughness tests such as the Charpy V Notch test can lead you into problems and the biggest problem is that trying to relate a test to the real world will often get you in trouble. In general however the lower the carbon the tougher the steel, so a .70% C will be tougher than a 1.00% Carbon steel. Also a steel containing significant amounts of nickel or silicon will be tougher. So for those mentioned I would , off hand, pick S7 (designed after all for shock applications) or L6. The L6 will be even better if heat treated to obtain bainite instead of martensite.

 

[Josh Muller]

I´ve heard, INFI is a "designer-steel" made at the computer. But after i had the chance to read about a metallurgical research i think it is a cheap unclean steel loaded with anything you ever heard about as good alloy. Most components are so small, that they don´t have an effect on the steel. In general it is a .5%C and 8%Cr MoV a touch of W and some impurities like Cu. You might mention the other under .05% alloys but it´s much to boring to me.

The blades are more than .2" thick made of an .5%C steelHRC below 58, so it´s no surprise that they can be bend. I was more surprised of a Hill Knife, .2" thick, made from ATS34 HRC59 that bend without breaking under a side load of 500N.

"http://www.bussecombat.com/infi/
busse isnt quite a small company. from what i have read, a good portion of their income comes from military orders, and they do enough bussiness to keep their wait list in the 2-3 month wait period (some times much longer).

it is possible that infi is a modified steel, so that the preexisting steel method and formula is less expensive to produce then a completely revolutionary steel. but the steel is nitrided - as jerry has stated.

jerry hossom once posted : "I will observe that 0.11% Nitrogen (presummably by weight) is a huge amount of Nitrogen. I have to assume it is in the form of a Nitride (maybe Chromium Nitride). That would be the only way you could calculate a precise amount. "

"Originally posted by ET from Panama City FL:

In another post, Mr. Busse agreed that my analysis was correct, with the addition of .11% nitrogen and .5% carbon, which the radioactive isotope spectral analysis can't detect. So, the complete formula is:

V .36% Vanadium
Cr 8.25% Chrome
Fe 87.79% Iron
Co .95% Cobalt
Ni .74% Nickel
Mo 1.3% Molybdenum
C .5% carbon
N .11% Nitrogen

These numbers should not be assumed to be exactly right, the cobalt at .95% is probably supposed to be 1.0%, but they should be close."

a "dirty steel" that performs well is a steel that performs well. an ultra clean steel that does not perform well, is, well, a steel that does not perform well. i dont see why it should be a determining factor on the overall opinion of a steel. if a person does the research, and finds that a "dirty" steel can be molded into a steel that has high performance, good deal.

"Most components are so small, that they don´t have an effect on the steel."
i would like to here a metallergists opinion on how trace elements can effect how a steel is heat tread, how it is made, and how it effects the matrix structure of a steel. all of wich can help go towards its end performance.

several people have said before on the forum that jerry does buy the steel at a very high permium, as it is a special product.

one of these days id like to see a test of identical knives in different steels, heat treated by a single person to their "maximum" performance level. and/or to a specific hardness on all.....

*edited to add, example of bainite l6 can be found in the bugei trading companies bainite katana's*

 

[Josh Muller]

i may be going overboard on these two posts, but it is very interesting information on infi, wich is one of the steels mentioned...

08-08-1999, 07:20 PM
Walt Welch
Basic Member Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Alamo, CA, USA
Posts: 1,838

Hey, wait a minute! Don't anybody move. Look at this thread, 'What is INFI.'
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000691.html

Here is a post which gives the elemental analysis of INFI:

Quote:
E T
Member posted 30 July 1999 02:07 PM
I had the INFI steel analyzed and its' composition is as follows:
Ti-0.2%
V-0.42%
Cr-7.7%
Fe-88%
Ni-.94%
Mo-1.33%
The carbon content can't be determined by the method used.


Mike Turber indicates that this analysis is accurate, admittedly somewhat indirectly. He also indicates that the mere elemental composition does not hold the secret of INFI:

Quote:
Mike Turber
Administrator posted 30 July 1999 09:00 PM
The anaylisis (sic) does not show how it is made only the ingredients. No propritary (sic) info is lost. I know how it is made and no secrets have been devuldged (sic) in the post above.
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW! www.wowinc.com



Then Tim Zowada makes this startling post, indicating that the heat treatment is NOT the secret part:

Quote:
Tim Zowada
Member posted 05 August 1999 11:39 AM INFI is proprietary in both analysis and manufacture. It isn't like any thing I've ever seen before. The heat treat is pretty straight forward, if you have the right equipment. It really is a fantastic steel. If I didn't make my living making Damascus, I would use it in all my knives.
That's all I can say for now, or Jerry will cut my tongue out and fingers off!

Tim Zowada


Now, putting this all together, a casual glance at INFI's composition reveals a rather low alloy steel, far from the high tech steels to which Tom Carey referred. The only mild surprise is the 0.2% Ti. It seems unlikely to me that this much Ti could account for mystical properties. Ti-Fe alloys are fairly common, as a few minutes on Principal Metals website will reveal:

http://www.principalmetals.com/

So, I am really confused now. Tom Carey, please tell me; since this INFI stuff appears to me to be a rather mundane low alloy steel, how can it have such amazing properties; especially since at least one poster indicates that the heat treatment isn't anything special. Why did you include it among the high tech steels, such as CPM, when it is anything but high tech.

As I mentioned in my previous post, vanadium levels above 4% are more easily achieved through CPM methodology. This stuff only has 0.42%, which cannot make enough vanadium carbides to profoundly affect the steel, IMHO. Remember that even the rather common M2 has 2% vanadium, and that the substantial difference between M2 and M4 comes by doubling the vanadium content. The other elements are present in concentrations considered to be substandard, or marginal at best. I mean, jeez; a Mo of 1.33%!

The thing that makes BG-42 so excellent is the presence of 4% molybdenum, 1.2% vanadium, and 14% chrome. It would seem that all you need to do to make INFI the equal of BG-42 is triple the Mo and V, and double the chrome. This does not seem the thing one would have to do to a super steel. I would not, on the basis of this information, call INFI high tech, or similar to CPM.

This puzzles me greatly. If this steel is really as good as it is said to be, then there must be a revolutionary process here. Simple elemental analysis doesn't suggest any special properties, and the heat treatment seems to not be magical either.

I am not saying the steel is NOT special, capable of wonderful, startling feats. What I am saying is I do not understand WHY this would be the case, given the composition and the fact that alloys similar to this have been around for many years.

I welcome any comments, criticisms, or questions; further, I welcome anyone who can reduce my confusion regarding this alloy.

Respectfully submitted, Walt

Obviously I have not mastered UBB code; sorry for not putting Principal Metals URL in a hyperlink. WW

[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 08 August 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 08 August 1999).]

 

[mete]

Seth , throwing in a few comments - Dirty steel refers to a high amount of inclusions , which are oxides or sulfides. A steel that is vacuum melted or even double vacuum melted has the lowest amount of inclusions and is very important for such things as bearings so BG42, a bearing steel ,will be very clean. Application determines the need for cleanliness......Vanadium in amounts of less than 1 % is added to refine the grain, not to produce carbides....... Are they saying Busse knives are nitrided ? that is a surface treatment like carburizing .In any case the Ti is probably there to form TiN, titanium nitride which acts like a carbide ( it's the gold stuff they coat drill bits with ). I haven't used one of those knives so I don't know how "fantastic" it is but I don't see anything in the composition that would produce miracles.

 

[Temper]

"Most components are so small, that they don´t have an effect on the steel."
i would like to here a metallergists opinion on how trace elements can effect how a steel is heat tread, how it is made, and how it effects the matrix structure of a steel. all of wich can help go towards its end performance.


Taken from "Metallurgy Fundamentals"

Alloying Elements: Most steels contain other ingredients in addition to Iron and Carbon. These ingredients are commonly called alloying elements. Most of the alloying elements in steel are present in small amounts, but they have a great effect on the properties of the steel

ISBN: 1-56637-543-6

 

[mete]

I should explain terminology here, a trace element is one found in small amounts and beneficial but not added intentionally, a tramp element is one not added intentionally but is undesirable. If it is added intentionally it is an alloying element regardless of the amount. The boron steels for example have boron added in amounts no more than .005 % yet the effect is very pronounced.

 

[Kaos]

I'm not a Metalurgist but I would vote for Infi when it comes to toughness. If you know Busse then You can tell the've always been on the switch for a better steel and as Jerry stated, if cpm 3v was better than Infi, they would certainly use it as it's cheaper and easier to obtain. I certainly believe that. There are probably other non-knife steels which are tougher but there's always a trade off somewhere. Maybe there could be an indestructible chopper made of L6 or whatever, would it make a good overall blade? I doubt it and I'm not on a mission to clear the forest.

interesting thread

 

[Blop]

Blop, what exactly did the article say about the ht?


Did it say if INFI was nitrided?

It wasn´t nitrided.

About the ht the summed up saying, they could have made more out of it. They found inhomogeneous grain sizes that proofed a low quality production process. The research is known to Jerry, so i guess for details aske him he will tell you better because of my limited english.

 

[Blop]

Blop , INFI is is not below 58 Rc , it's 58 - 60 Rc .
Ron Hood did a review and the 3 blades he had were all at 60 Rc .

This one was 57 at the edge and against 60 at the spine. It was a single one.

 

[Blop]

Boy, I guess I'd better go sell my Busses quick before everyone else finds out they are made of cheap unclean steel. It's amazing he doesn't go broke replacing knives with his unconditional guarantee and using cheap steel. This must also account for the long wait for new knives and the high resale value on the secondary market. Go figure.

Rob

I just look at the research and made my concusion.

I guess, at that price range, where you pay double for one you can give such a warranty. Go break yours, will you?

And having handled a few i strongly belive, if they are sold hioghly it´s just for the name.

 

[cgd160]

This one was 57 at the edge and against 60 at the spine. It was a single one.

Somethings not right with that blade and it should be sent back to Busse . By the way , what knife was it anyway ?