Stabilizing wood with 2k epoxy resin WIP

[Ken H>]

Once the wood/epoxy is good 'n dry, then you sand wood clean so the only epoxy is what's soaked into the wood it will be interesting to see if the block floats or sinks in water. If you had used dye in any of the blocks cutting into the block to see how deep the dyed epoxy went would tell lots. If wood sinks and it looks like 100% penetration, I'd say you're good and I'd like to know cost of epoxy vs Cactus Juice.

Good work and thank you for keeping us informed to progress.

 

[weo]

I was under the impression that you would vacuum it for sometime to remove the air from the wood and resin then put it under pressure to help force it into the wood better. So you would need a container that can handle negative and positive pressure

It's my understanding that this is what the larger operations (K&G for one) do, and why their stabilization is so consistent and high quality.

 

[PEU]

did you used coloring in at least one of them to check for penetration?

Pablo

 

[FredyCro]

I was under the impression that you would vacuum it for sometime to remove the air from the wood and resin then put it under pressure to help force it into the wood better. So you would need a container that can handle negative and positive pressure

I used to have a good relationship with several manufactures of epoxy and other resins. One told me that the best way to reduce the viscosity is 1 part MEK to 3 parts acetone added to the epoxy after mixing A&B together. Quantity of thinner is dependent on the resin and desired thinness.

Acrylic resin generally start out thinner then most others so they may make a good starting point

EDIT: I didn't see the responses before, so read it as such.

The general diy procedure is to put the wood in the resin and pull vacuum. When no more bubbles come out (resin and wood are free of air) you stop the vacuum and the atmospheric pressure pushes the resin in the wood. At this point if you succeeded the pieces sized like knife blocks should be almost 100% saturated with resin. The extra step is to leave the wood to soak in resin (as long or twice as long as the wood was under vacuum, for acrylic resin some argue even up to a week for denser wood). From what I read the kind of pressure you can put on a small pressure pot is too low to help pushing the resin further in. Speciality equipment is needed, especially for stabilizing big blocks of wood. At Richard Kappeller shop in Austria I saw stump sized blocks of stabilized popplar.

As for thinning the epoxy the general opinion is that thinning it weakens the integrity significantly. As for wood stabilizing the acetone that evaporates means less stabilisant in the wood and is also not good when under vacuum.

Sorry for not being very technical, it's just what I read online and try to explain in my own words.

 

[FredyCro]

did you used coloring in at least one of them to check for penetration?

Pablo

No, I think the color difference will be obvious without colorant and I didnt have any (epoxy compatible) colorant at hand. I will saw through the blocks and do a quick finish on the wood and observe how it responds to cutting, sanding, polishing and how it takes true oil. I weighed the pieces and it looks that apple, poplar and maple took 100% to 300% percent of its weight. The spalted apple weighs over 200g! I will cut similar sized pieces to compare approximate take in of epoxy.

 

[FredyCro]

did you used coloring in at least one of them to check for penetration?

Pablo

Here is a German YT maker that compared two stabilising resins on walnut. He used resinpal and it didn't penetrate the walnut piece completely. Fast forward to 2:48.

He mentions that he did a mistake because he pulled vacuum for only one hour and soaked also for only one hour.

IMPORTANT:
The pen stabilizing guy says that in his expirience the best results are achieved by releasing vacuum and building it again couple of times during vacuum stage.
I had the pump running for about an hour, then turned it off, went to play football for an hour and then turned it on for about 3 more hours. In second run the initial bubble/foam build up was mostly around poplar and apple. After 2 more hours vacuum there was maybe a bubble or two every couple seconds from walnut. Since it was one in the morning I turned it off and went to sleep. I took the pieces out before going to work at ca 7 am. I wondered what my colleagues in work would think if I told them I was stabilising wood till 1 am, hahah

 

[Backyard]

EDIT: I didn't see the responses before, so read it as such.

The general diy procedure is to put the wood in the resin and pull vacuum. When no more bubbles come out (resin and wood are free of air) you stop the vacuum and the atmospheric pressure pushes the resin in the wood. At this point if you succeeded the pieces sized like knife blocks should be almost 100% saturated with resin. The extra step is to leave the wood to soak in resin (as long or twice as long as the wood was under vacuum, for acrylic resin some argue even up to a week for denser wood). From what I read the kind of pressure you can put on a small pressure pot is too low to help pushing the resin further in. Speciality equipment is needed, especially for stabilizing big blocks of wood. At Richard Kappeller shop in Austria I saw stump sized blocks of stabilized popplar.

As for thinning the epoxy the general opinion is that thinning it weakens the integrity significantly. As for wood stabilizing the acetone that evaporates means less stabilisant in the wood and is also not good when under vacuum.

Sorry for not being very technical, it's just what I read online and try to explain in my own words.

As for how much pressure is needed, I have no idea but would guess it won't take too much. Maybe 25 psi will make a big difference. One aspect is it also shrinks the remaining bubbles by pressuring them. My brother for some time worked at a facility that make resin castings and used this method. If I remember correctly he used a pressure pot but I would have to ask him the pressures. I know they pulled a vacuum first then pressurized it. I think the process is very similar to what is discussed here.

As for the addition of a solvent. I know most manufactures will speciy the max allowed before degradation or weakening. I think the ones I spoke with had somewhere around 8oz to a gallon of resin with no significant weakening. It was also supposed to extend the pot life or how long it took before it started to set up. And from my years of working with resins (I worked at a industrial resinous flooring company) I have no reason to doubt their statements. Of course this was for a bit different use and possibly different chemistry so results may differ.

 

[FredyCro]

As for how much pressure is needed, I have no idea but would guess it won't take too much. Maybe 25 psi will make a big difference. One aspect is it also shrinks the remaining bubbles by pressuring them. My brother for some time worked at a facility that make resin castings and used this method. If I remember correctly he used a pressure pot but I would have to ask him the pressures. I know they pulled a vacuum first then pressurized it. I think the process is very similar to what is discussed here.

As for the addition of a solvent. I know most manufactures will speciy the max allowed before degradation or weakening. I think the ones I spoke with had somewhere around 8oz to a gallon of resin with no significant weakening. It was also supposed to extend the pot life or how long it took before it started to heat up. And from my years of working with resins (I worked at a industrial resinous flooring company) I have no reason to doubt their statements. Of course this was for a bit different use and possibly different chemistry so results may differ.

I will of course consider pressurizing if my first trial is a fail. It could also help with the less porous woods. A good bike pump could take it up to 100 psi easily.

Regarding the weakening of the epoxy here is an article i stumbled upon when researching https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/thinning-west-system-epoxy

According to the article it makes the resin up to 50 % weaker depending on the amount added and it weakens the waterproofing. It can also mess up the curing process. Heating the chamber or wood could help with penetration though.

 

[Backyard]

I will of course consider pressurizing if my first trial is a fail. It could also help with the less porous woods. A good bike pump could take it up to 100 psi easily.

Regarding the weakening of the epoxy here is an article i stumbled upon when researching https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/thinning-west-system-epoxy

According to the article it makes the resin up to 50 % weaker depending on the amount added and it weakens the waterproofing. It can also mess up the curing process. Heating the chamber or wood could help with penetration though.

I guess one can say that those issues are definitely present for west system epoxy but may not be for other manufactures or chemistries. One would have to contact the manufacturer of the resin in question to find out. There has been times where I would have to talk directly to the chemist to get our questions answered as many of the data sheets or sales staff would not have the needed information

 

[Backyard]

My simple homebrew set up. I mixed about 0.6 kg of resin. Pulled vacuum yesterday for about 4 hours and left the wood to soak overnight. The resin was slightly denser in the morning but not much (after about 11 h of activating). I used the resin leftovers for 2 blocks of jeans/pants mycarta. The cure time is about 72 h. I actually did a sample of resin to test how long it will need to cure at my room temperature and to see how it thickens before I proceeded with the wood. I didn't want to have a block of cured resin with my handle material in them. I will cut up the blanks next week to see how the penetration is. Unfortunately I didn't write down the weight of the blocks beforehand, but they took a lot of resin. Spalted apple seems to got very dark and it took tons of resin and is very heavy.

Are you using a refrigerator compressor for the vacuum pump on its side? If so it won't last long. It needs to sit flat like it was in the fridge so the oil pick up and lubrication works properly

 

[FredyCro]

Are you using a refrigerator compressor for the vacuum pump on its side? If so it won't last long. It needs to sit flat like it was in the fridge so the oil pick up and lubrication works properly

Yeah, it's an old fridge pump. I will ask my friend who gave it to me if it was mounted horizontally or vertically. I think that is actually made to run vertically but not sure. If it dies I will buy a decent pump. I also need a more stabile chamber, as you can see mine is supported with a plywood ring on the inside because it collapsed first time I used it. A taller chamber would be nice as well.

 

[Natlek]

Yeah, it's an old fridge pump. I will ask my friend who gave it to me if it was mounted horizontally or vertically. I think that is actually made to run vertically but not sure. If it dies I will buy a decent pump. I also need a more stabile chamber, as you can see mine is supported with a plywood ring on the inside because it collapsed first time I used it. A taller chamber would be nice as well.

It is not just oil lubricating , motor inside hinge on springs , connection wire inside are short and even improper handling /flipping motor around / can cut one of them.....it is important for that motor to be fixed properly. Nice work so far

 

[FredyCro]

It is not just oil lubricating , motor inside hinge on springs , connection wire inside are short and even improper handling /flipping motor around / can cut one of them.....it is important for that motor to be fixed properly. Nice work so far

Thanks. The motor is bolted on the plate. My friend confirmed it was vertically mounted. Do you have any further suggestion. When it dies I can buy a 50 euro motor from ebay/Amazon. I will probably use it twice a year.. Next batch is goona be bigger with colored pieces of wood (water died before stabilising) .

 

[Natlek]

I will of course consider pressurizing if my first trial is a fail. It could also help with the less porous woods. A good bike pump could take it up to 100 psi easily.

Regarding the weakening of the epoxy here is an article i stumbled upon when researching https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/thinning-west-system-epoxy

According to the article it makes the resin up to 50 % weaker depending on the amount added and it weakens the waterproofing. It can also mess up the curing process. Heating the chamber or wood could help with penetration though.

You already have compressor .....................

 

[Backyard]

Be careful running a refrigerator compressor passed its test pressure. Most are tested at 300 psi. The case of the compressor is held at the output pressure so if it ruptured it would be bad. Most though will simply stop running from too much pressure resistance on the piston but you never know once you run them above the test pressure

 

[FredyCro]

Today I will have a look what these two stumps I found near my house are hiding. I think it's poplar and hope there is some interesting spalting going on inside of the wood.

 

[weo]

hope there is some interesting spalting going on inside of the wood.

Don't forget about the burl sections on the right sided piece...

 

[FredyCro]

Don't forget about the burl sections on the right sided piece...

No chance the left piece will end up like fire wood mostly I think. I just can't reach my neighbour with a chainsaw to cut it up in some more manageable pieces.

 

[FredyCro]

Here are the pics.

Everything floats apart the apple which sinks.

All the wood was noticeably harder on the band saw. Apple revealed a pocket. It looks almost like spalting caused it (also the epoxy obviously reacted with wood and made it much darker in a nice way and helped to show movement of epoxy).

I think that maybe I didn't cover the wood with enough epoxy or I could have held it longer under vacuum and degause more often. All the other pieces seem like the epoxy went through. Everything is a rough 100 grit, all wood takes oil equally and has the same shades. Worm holes are filled/stabilized. I think the epoxy is also still not fully hardnened (needs 7 days).

I will reserve the final opinion after finishing a handle or two. I am interested if it will still harden to a degree more then acrilic resin. If not I wouldn't see any very good reason to use it. The pro is it doesn't need to be baked. The con is it can't be reused.

Final hardness/finishing is still open.

And mycarta as a byproduct

 

[Ken H>]

I understand you said Cactus Juice (or other stabilizing resin) is hard to get in Austria so finding a good alternative would be good. It does seem like you're doing good research and using decent tests to determine if the "stabilized" wood has soaked up the epoxy. Good job.

Let's see if I understand, the Apple (is that the almost black block in lower left corner?) is fully under water. The block that's in the lower right corner looks like it might be floating about half out of water with only about half of the wood submerged? The idea of testing in water is the raw wood floats high out of water. Depending on how much resin is soaked into wood determines how low in water the finished block floats. With enough resin the block will sink. Most all K&G stabilized blocks will sink, but might float with just the top of block at waterline. That's the same as my results with Cactus Juice. I do find that home stabilizing needs an open pore type wood. A fairly dense wood like American Black Walnut doesn't home stabilize very good while K&G does a GREAT job with the wood.

Keep up the good work.