Stainless don't mind the rain

I have to get over seeing a pepper spot show up on my shiny carbon steel knives :D

And it's interesting because other than some collectable Case knives, everything I carried regularly, since I started in Scouting anyway (last 10-11 years) was stainless, all SAK's except for a Zippo Cut-a-bout lockback. It wasn't until I found this forum that I remembered my old Imperial Barlow, buried in a tool box since before I was married. It was dirty with a little rust but cleaned up fairly well, the worst rust was inside on the back of the springs which I cleaned with oil and q-tips. Not much pitting either which surprised me.

Of all the new knives I've bought in the last year or so, the only one that seemed destined to defy my practice of wiping down the blades to keep 'em clean was my GEC Montana whittler. It developed pepper spots on all three blades after whittling during a camping weekend. I cleaned off the blades each time with a clean bandanna, and I gotta tell you that I was pretty bummed at a new knife peppering up like that. So I bit the bullet and forced a vinegar patina on it, the blades are just about black. After the patina I oiled them up but haven't used it a whole lot since. I've been debating polishing up the blades and letting it patina naturally, or keeping it shiny.

Oh yeah, as for the downpours we're having now, I've been carrying stainless, but it's German stainless for TOTM :D
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
And the Camillus-made Buck 300 series were done in 440A. Very, very easy to take care of and sharpen to a fine edge.
Click to expand...

knarfeng said:
They used 440A. Stands to reason they used it on the ones the made for Buck. Certainly my old Camillus made 303 holds an edge as if it were that alloy.
Click to expand...

not to derail this thread overly much...but this is of interest to me
i know rough rider uses 440A, and quite honestly i was led to believe that it was a ....sub-par steel.

recent comments such as these are making me wonder if i was mislead or perhaps operating under bad information...
440A not really a bad knife steel?
 
I don't have anything to contribute to this thread, but I just wanted to say that I sure do enjoy reading threads about my two favorite knives, Buck and SAK. Take all of those "high-end" knives of "super steel", and...well um...just take them. Good thread! Oh, and I like the idea of carbon blades, but in reality I find stainless much preferable since rust drives me nuts.
 
Last edited:
Rsmith_77 said:
not to derail this thread overly much...but this is of interest to me
i know rough rider uses 440A, and quite honestly i was led to believe that it was a ....sub-par steel.

recent comments such as these are making me wonder if i was mislead or perhaps operating under bad information...
440A not really a bad knife steel?
Click to expand...

There was a time when I was inclined to look down upon it. But, as I found with 440C, my 'issues' with it were a lot more about my own inability to correctly sharpen it. :D

I've since seen the light. My Buck 307 stockman in 440A became one of my new 'favorite knives' when I finally found a method that worked great in sharpening it (I used SiC sandpaper to thin & convex the edges on it). I'm sure there are other great ways to sharpen it too, but that's what 'turned' me in the right direction. Literally an epiphany for me, in completely contradicting what I'd previously assumed about this steel.

440A chemistry (note how the numbers for carbon & chromium compare favorably to 420HC chemistry posted in Frank's reply earlier):

0.65 - 0.75% carbon (edge holding)
16 - 18% chromium (corrosion resistance)
0.75% Molybdenum
1.00% Manganese
0.03% Sulphur
0.04% Phosphorus
 
Last edited:
I think 440A gets a bad rap because of the number of companies who don't do a good job with the heat treat.

I found an old Schrade knife steel chart that someone posted (see below). According to it, Schrade hardened their 440A to a 58-60. Phil Gibbs, who now works for AG Russell, but used to design for Camillus, told me that Camillus also used to harden 440A to about that hardness. If hardened to 58-60 I think 440A makes a great alloy for a user traditional pocket knife.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/378164-Schrade-Blade-Steels?p=4079157#post4079157
 
I have a non-traditional in 440A that works just fine, stays sharp for a decent amount of time as I've only had to sharpen it once. I was able to get it razor sharp with a Sharpmaker too. Same with my Rough Rider Scout.
 
I have to agree with the above on 440A! I've got four remaining with this fine steel two Camillius, one Queen and one Schrade and they all have great heat treated 440 steel!
 
Is this place great, or what?

Look at all the knowledge that has poured forth just because I wanted to take some pictures of my knife in the rain!
 
knarfeng said:
As for 420HC, it isn't a complete mystery either, even though there is no official composition for it. Up until recently, Buck bought their steel from Latrobe. Latrobe does has a set composition for 420HC.

C___0.46%
Cr__13%
Mn__0.4%
Si____.4%
V____0.3%

Buck hardens their 420HC to a Rockwell of about 58-59.
Click to expand...

Frank, is this a misprint? I thought the HC (high carbon) meant it had to have more than .5% carbon.
 
I can't comment on 440a. But, I wanted to say in case any of the comments about sharpening stainless was due to me, I know how easy it can be to sharpen and how sharp it can get.

My Henckels whittler (which I adore) is 420hc

Here is a video of it:

[video=youtube;AlhwbgKQ3jg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlhwbgKQ3jg&feature=plcp[/video]

Here is the best closeup I could get with my phone just now:

SU1HLTIwMTIwOTE5LTAwMDI2LmpwZw==_zps7fcd263f.jpg


I have also commented before how much whittling of hard woods I have done with this knife with very little edge dulling and NO edge deformation. I forgot this one I did thin out on my grinder, but since have kept it up by hand. Its convex.

I don't have a thing against stainless its not that. Its that for ME 1095 is the absolute most responsive on my arkansas stones. It is the absolute quickest and easiest. Again, for me. It is what I prefer.

I also have a lot of experience with sharpening Buck's 420hc. I sharpen knives for any friend or family member any time for free. A lot of the friends and family carry Buck knives ;)

Just so its clear I was NOT trying to put down stainless. I also think A LOT of decent steels get bad names.

Thanks :) ,

Kevin
 
black mamba said:
Frank, is this a misprint? I thought the HC (high carbon) meant it had to have more than .5% carbon.
Click to expand...

I've scratched my head at that too, from time to time. Most (but not all) of the published definitions of 'high carbon' stainless usually put the lower limit at ~ 0.5% carbon content. But many mainstream cutlery steel manufacturers have sometimes dipped a little below that. I've also seen some variation in the published carbon content of 420HC, from around 0.45% up to 0.60% or so, depending on where one looks it up. Most true 'low carbon' steels will be well below this range anyway (0.05 - 0.35%, by one reference book I have), so I haven't worried about it too much. Seems like at least some makers have managed to do pretty well with 420HC by these existing specs.

Below is a link to a .pdf data sheet from Latrobe Specialty Steel Company (420HC's creator), which also spec's the carbon at 0.46% in this steel. It's interesting to note, even they specifically label it as '420 HC (High Carbon) Stainless Steel' in the document, as seen in the screen-capture image below:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEQQFjAE&url=http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/LSS_420_HC.pdf&ei=VQZaUKirF8f1rAHNvYHYDg&usg=AFQjCNEgy39IGvoaFBcezbcr2hPjzUP7fQ&cad=rja
 
Last edited:
knarfeng said:
I think 440A gets a bad rap because of the number of companies who don't do a good job with the heat treat.

I found an old Schrade knife steel chart that someone posted (see below). According to it, Schrade hardened their 440A to a 58-60. Phil Gibbs, who now works for AG Russell, but used to design for Camillus, told me that Camillus also used to harden 440A to about that hardness. If hardened to 58-60 I think 440A makes a great alloy for a user traditional pocket knife.
Click to expand...

I think that is very true. There was a very active and insightful conversation on the Kershaw subforum about 440A and AUS6 which seem to perform in a similar fashion. I had no idea that the 30 year old stainless knife I had that I bought way back when was AUS6 since I had never heard a decent thing about it. The steel on that knife was so hard that it was very difficult for me to sharpen on my stones, especially since I did it all free hand in those days. That steel was hard, hard.

Then a couple of years later I got a Lansky system and was able to clamp it in place and reprofile that knife exactly the way I wanted it. Once I got it reprofiled and sharp, it became a dandy knife to have and worked like champ. I was in disbelief when the Kershaw guys told me it was AUS6.

Probably one of the most important things I have had reinforced here on Bladeforums is that heat treatment of a certain steel in the hands of someone that understands that particular steel is just about as important as the actual material itself.

I am happy with 440A as a blade steel on a pocket knife, too. I have found it almost never rusts or shows any kind of corrosion and holds and edge well. I have 4 - 5 traditional patterns from a peanut to a full sized stockman that are in 440A, and they are very good knives for my use. Slightly reprofiled, they respond well to a fine stone and even a strop for a tune up. And since the knives that have this steel aren't usually all that expensive, if I actually wreck the edge, I have no problems putting one of those knives back on the Lansky and regrinding a new edge.

Robert
 
This is why I love this place. Doesn't matter how different people do things, everyone still helps each other.
 
And speaking of AUS-6 (not too far removed from 420HC or 440A), I think it was a blade made from this that first really made me bleed a good bit. I have an older Parker-branded, Japanese-made knife in AUS-6 that 'bit' me once, and I gained a higher respect for it, from early on. The knife had an edge grind much like Buck's current 'Edge2000' grinds (hollow, acute and somewhat toothy), and I saw nothing inferior in how effortlessly it sliced into my finger. :)

AUS-6 composition:
0.55 - 0.65% carbon
13.0 - 14.5% chromium
0.10 - 0.25% vanadium
0.49% nickel
1.0% manganese
1.0% silicon
0.03% sulphur
0.04% phosphorus

I am also a believer in the importance of the process/heat treat, as opposed to the steel's elemental makeup alone. It does seem that many makers have refined their processes to a level way beyond what probably existed 30 or more years ago, and I think some of those old 'mediocre' steels might not be so much any more (if they ever actually were). :)
 
black mamba said:
Frank, is this a misprint? I thought the HC (high carbon) meant it had to have more than .5% carbon.
Click to expand...
Normally the >.5% rule fits. However, in this case, the HC is to differentiate it from (standard) 420 stainless - an alloy which can have as little as .16% carbon.
Hope this helps,
Steve
 
stevomiller said:
Normally the >.5% rule fits. However, in this case, the HC is to differentiate it from (standard) 420 stainless - an alloy which can have as little as .16% carbon.
Hope this helps,
Steve
Click to expand...

Bingo.
 
Great thread Doug, I've never had a CV or carbon blade rust on me, spent plenty of time camping with weeks of wet weather, work in a wet environment, also days working in 120 degree temps with high humidity, sweating through my jeans with my knives in my pockets ( Opinel & Boker carbon ) never had them rust, only knife that ever rusted on me was my SS Case
D21AEB47-2F50-455B-B04D-5CE5E4116833-4094-0000059573CC13D9_zps652df7ac.jpg

I have bought plenty of rusted carbon blades second hand, I find carbon to be fairly maintenance free after a patina is established. I have a 440 Laguiole that holds and takes a great edge and Victorinox & Boker do fantastic jobs on there stainless in my experience. I think it comes down to preference, I have just found that a carbon blade just works better for me in the field.

Just want to add, 12c27 is a steel I have really grown to like, I have two or three knives with this steel and have found it to be the best of both worlds.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top