Stainless Steel Chart Comparison EDC Knife Blades v5.5

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Santos, It may be true that my brain doesn't work as fast as it used to. I need easier to read stuff like this: http://www.latrobesteel.com/technical_alloycomparison.cfm?View=Results&CatID=1

That sure doesn't mean I don't respect the work and innovative approach Kenneth took while looking for an easier to understand approach to cutlery steel guides. I'm not sure your statement:
A lot of you people are also completely NARCISSISTIC in just have no manners when voicing out your opinions.
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is the greatest first post on a forum I've seen, but then again it's not the worst either. :)

Welcome to Blade Forum.

Joe
 
bongsantos said:
Thank you KennethW for posting this very informative graph/ chart. Its very helpful for a newbie like me. I know what you are trying to do and share and honestly, what you did just now is just AWESOME! I fully understand your chart and your explanations. I do understand the numbers are merely representation of values compared to other metals described and I just cant understand why a lot of members here are trying to force you to put out exact numbers to quantify. Maybe they have a very hard time taking all the info in! Hehehe... It must be really hard for a lot of you as I understand (and seem to notice), a lot of you people are probably hardcore followers of a particular metal and are basically disappointed with the chart comparison and basically demand an explanation. A lot of you people are also completely NARCISSISTIC in just have no manners when voicing out your opinions. I really feel sorry for a lot you Narcissist who really got sore by the charts as I definitely understand what KennethW is trying to achieve. A lot of you people think youre EXPERTS and think you know everyrhing about knives and metals. But in reality, everybody has differing opinions about every type of metals and every type of knives. So really, no need to really be hyped about these simple things. Ive been researching facts about some of the particular metals mentioned and I believe the representation of the charts are basically correct. You may have different opinions, but believe me, in a forum where everybody thinks he's right, NOBODY CARES!! :)
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A33KnvHCAAECPzU.jpg:large
 
Thanks KennethW for taking the time to put this together, update, and listen to all the steel 'experts" give you grief for your efforts. You did preface the thread with factors that affect performance, and indicated this was not intended to be an engineers work. Apparently some didn't comprehend this. While not overly technical or full of specifications, I find this to be an easily understood, and generally useful tool. I appreciate your time and efforts.
 
Where do they find the time to find so much wrong with a post.
All this info is out on the web in the same type chart,thanks for your efforts in posting it hear for us. Keep us updated.
 
It's been a nice effort. Haven't read it in a while but rereading it, I got a belly laugh out of this exchange:

But as for now, the index is based on a general consensus of users and resources. Thanks for your feedback.
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Which also means nothing as much as far as quantifying something.
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Which also means just about anything posted on bladeforums is pretty worthless. :D

Certainly all this data is verifiable by anyone willing to verify. Where are all the great self described scientific minds that populate bladeforums?
 
These charts seem to fully back up Mr Ankersons findings in his testing he has presented in these forums. Frank
 
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Hi Kenneth,
I was searching for the rapid steel info used for the anvil sonotrode. And I could only get the rapid steel is a registered company.
Can you please advise? Thanks.
Yvonne Yap
 
Appreciate the chart. Very helpful for the broad overview picture of what different knife steels have as attributes. And yes, as a fellow statistician, I understand that you are just doing a qualitative ranked comparison. Very helpful for someone (like me) just trying to get an idea of what's out there and how it stacks up against other things. Thanks.

jschlung
 
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Frank Niro said:
These charts seem to fully back up Mr Ankersons findings in his testing he has presented in these forums. Frank
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I think it was the other way around, chart was based on Ankersons findings and knife steel FAQ. Just like CATRA results don't back the charts, chart was built using them :)

jschlung said:
Appreciate the chart. Very helpful for the broad overview picture of what different knife steels have as attributes. And yes, as a fellow statistician, I understand that you are just doing a qualitative ranked comparison. Very helpful for someone (like me) just trying to get an idea of what's out there and how it stacks up against other things.
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Unfortunately it's neither easy nor straightforward to do qualitative comparisons for most of the charts here.
ZDP 189 isn't 1.5 times more corrosion resistant compared to VG-1, 440B etc... It has less corrosion resistance than 440b, 440a and others. COrrosion resistance also depends on HT method, even if the resulting hardness is the same.
Edge retention is controversial, because of cutting techniques, edge geometry and angles all have their influence. What is very good for push cutting may not work as well for slicing and vice versa.
ZDP-189 ranks very high for edge retention in the charts, but for the edges thinner than 10 per side it will fracture easily... In humid or aggressive environments it won't fare well either.
None of that is reflected in the charts, too many variables and too difficult. Making it too simple doesn't really serve someone looking for info.

"Ease to sharpen" is based on what? Number of people complaining about sharpening difficulties on this forum? Way too many variables to put up a chart like that and claim scientific data analysis or anything like it. Soft steel if often harder to sharpen because the edge folds compared to bunch of "hard to sharpen" steels in the chart.

My problem is the whole "chart benchmarks performance" representation with references to statistical analysis, when in fact there is very little statistical or analytical data used to build them.

Representing it as "my opinion" or my grouping would be more honest way and less controversial.
 
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Gator97 said:
"Ease to sharpen" is based on what? Number of people complaining about sharpening difficulties on this forum? Way too many variables to put up a chart like that and claim scientific data analysis or anything like it. Soft steel if often harder to sharpen because the edge folds compared to bunch of "hard to sharpen" steels in the chart.

My problem is the whole "chart benchmarks performance" representation with references to statistical analysis, when in fact there is very little statistical or analytical data used to build them.

Representing it as "my opinion" or my grouping would be more honest way and less controversial.
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:thumbup:


It may be feasible to quantify facts about knives, or their components. (still tricky)

It is much, much, much harder to quantify facts about THE USAGE OF knives.

We see the same thing when discussing bicycles and skis. There is no such thing fast bike. On their own, bikes are barely capable of leaning against the barn wall. No such things as a ski with good edge hold. On their own, skis just bounce down the hill willy-nilly (<- scientific term).

When human interaction of any kind enters the picture, you might (might, might) be able quantify things if (huge if) you have the funding to do massively large studies that can be reasonably well standardized. But honestly... that just doesn't happen very often.

Can quantitative heuristics be created to stand in as a replacement for the human experience? Sure. Tests like CARTA do just that. But their applicability to actual usage is always suspect.

The culture has a very deep cultural bias towards quantification as truth. Having worked in engineering and mathematics for most of my career, it's just not that simple.
 
pinnah said:
:thumbup:


It may be feasible to quantify facts about knives, or their components. (still tricky)

It is much, much, much harder to quantify facts about THE USAGE OF knives.

We see the same thing when discussing bicycles and skis. There is no such thing fast bike. On their own, bikes are barely capable of leaning against the barn wall. No such things as a ski with good edge hold. On their own, skis just bounce down the hill willy-nilly (<- scientific term).

When human interaction of any kind enters the picture, you might (might, might) be able quantify things if (huge if) you have the funding to do massively large studies that can be reasonably well standardized. But honestly... that just doesn't happen very often.

Can quantitative heuristics be created to stand in as a replacement for the human experience? Sure. Tests like CARTA do just that. But their applicability to actual usage is always suspect.

The culture has a very deep cultural bias towards quantification as truth. Having worked in engineering and mathematics for most of my career, it's just not that simple.
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A lot of people would scoff at this but I think you've pointed out something crucial, which I think about now and again. Don't get me wrong, I'm considering a medical career, so I appreciate the importance of mathematics, statistical accuracy, and the like, but the pure computation and interpretation of data does have its limits. That may be a controversial opinion, however...
 
New to blade forums. This particular forum and all of its comments caught my eye. There may be some flaws in the charting but over all I found it pretty helpful when I'm just starting to grasp the different properties of steel and how they rank. I think you have tried to do a very difficult thing here and done a pretty decent job. Thanks for the info. I know you have been improving on this for a long time :)
 
KennethW thanks for the chart. Don't let the naysayers get you down. Most of them don't know what they are talking about. They really do not understand how to make a decent engineering decision with limited information.
I am a long time engineer (45 years) in aerospace, semiconductor and orthopedic instrument manufacture (thats right bone cutting instruments). I worked in a machine shop while I was in college. That was so long ago that it was before carbide cutting tools were common. I had to grind my own lathe tools from high speed tool steels like REX 95, cobalt steels like MoMax, and TanTung G. I am also a hunter and have a lot of experience with hunting knives used for dressing, skinning and butchering deer. I am familiar with manufacture and use of many of these materials on a professional basis. I have also examined thousands of returned medical instruments as a part of the FDA requirement for investigating complaints. The companies that I worked for considered any tool returned as a complaint. I analyzed tools that had been abused in almost every fashion from just being worn out for long time use to tools that had been battered by the orthopedic surgeons.

There are so many variables that the selection process needs gross simplification to get past the analysis paralysis
One of the tasks a design engineer does is make materials selections based on performance vs cost.
First you have to rank the various performance parameters.
Some you don't care much about. Some have to be optimized. Some merely have to be acceptable. Some characteristics you cannot use in any circumstance.

Here is how I would use the chart and it is very simple.

First determine what your cost constraints are. That is cost of the raw materials, cost of manufacture, cost of any special or outside processes.
The total cost has to be acceptable to you.

Performance
This is where it might be subjective unless - you are willing to spend a lot of money testing each and every steel.

1. I already know for these materials, if I wanted one for a hunting knife, corrosion resistance is of no concern. Wash the knife clean after each use and you will have no problem. So corrosion is not even a factor for me.
2. Hardness of the blade
Too soft & it will not hold an edge. Too hard & it will chip or break off the tip easily. Blade grind geometry also effects these issues.
That is a thin tip is really easy to break with a 62 Rockwell blade.
58 Rockwell C is about the minimum hardness that I want. 55 is better for a blade that will be abused.
60-62 is good for a knife that you want to hold a fine edge. For my imginary knife I want a blade for skinning. It needs a fine edge so I want the
hardness between 60- 62 Rockwell C as a guide. The exact number is not important. This is a personal knife not a tool optimized for human surgery.
This degree of hardness will give adequate wear for me.
Ok now I have the material narrowed to 2 or 3 choices.
I decide what I want to optimize. Ability to hold an edge? Ease of sharpening?
What ever I want to optimize I can pick it from the chart. The next parameter will be a compromise between ok and must have.

After I have made my choice maybe I try to find a couple of cheap knives with those materials to test. If not I make my choice and live with it.
If I don't like it then too bad - pick one of the others and try it.
No matter what choice I make, it must satisfy me in actual use.

If you are really anal you determine how to test for all the parameters that you consider important.
Then you design standard knife blade and a set of standard tests.
Then you run the same tests on sample knife blades to narrow your choices. If you find a couple of steel you like you can test 30
blades of each type steel to get a statistically valid sample size. Then you can make your pick based on the results.

Many of the steels have little to offer other than novelty. Many marketeers will attempt to differentiate their product with a
distinctive exotic trade or brand name. Sometimes it means something. Sometimes not. The physical design of a good knife may mean
more than use of an exclusive material.
Then there is always the use of expert systems data. An expert system might be a heavy user or 10. Have one use your favorite knife
for 6 months.
Your local meat cutter may use the same $10 "Old Hickory" for 2 years.
One other option is buy the standard design engineers text book for chosing materials. It has hundreds of case studies that you can emulate.
Materials Selection in Mechanical Design, Fourth Edition by Michael F. Ashby.
His methods will lead you to quantifying and ranking the various characteristics.
Then you can chart the properties and make your decision. You do not have to take my word for it.
 
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@Buck ;
I really could care less if he developed the SR-71 by himself. It is an obsolete airplane now. Retired; hung on walls in museums. Ask him yourself.
Kenneth made a very good attempt, something the rest of you choose not to do. I guess you're too busy making knives to tackle something this detailed.
Knarfeng obviously wants everyone to know he's a real whiz bang, the same as Walter Palmer wants everyone to know he has rare animals hanging on his wall.
Most folks that are as good as they say they are, will offer something. You and Knarfeng want everyone to know you're top quality folks in the criticism field. Bucky, feel free to worship Knarfeng- That's what he's after. Ask him what he's did yesterday for an encore. He's not near the man that the pilots were, of the plane. I know of none of them that have a need to brag about what they did. You have a good day BIG Bucky
 
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