Stainless Steel Chart Comparison EDC Knife Blades v5.5

[KennethW]

You are welcome, but general consensus(in relation to corrosion resistance at least) and what I see on the web, is more like good/bad type of assessments. How do you go form that to the number with decimal point precision? I'm not trying to put down your work or flame, but giving numbers with such precision implies rather solid data behind them, otherwise it's quite misleading.

While it is true that it may not be a pin point precision decimal rating. But if 10 sites say H-1 is more resistant than VG-10/154CM/440C, wouldnt you be inclined to believe that it holds at least some truth? As mentioned in the methodology section of the post, the rating is based on the rank of corrosion resistance of a particular steel when compared to the other steels in the chart. It is not based of numeric value determined by a test. Except for hardness which I take Rockwell averages of different knife makers, and Edge retention which I have pulled data in from CATRA tests resources.

Again, thanks for your feedback.

 

[singularity35]

While it is true that it may not be a pin point precision decimal rating. But if 10 sites say H-1 is more resistant than VG-10/154CM/440C, wouldnt you be inclined to believe that it holds at least some truth? As mentioned in the methodology section of the post, the rating is based on the rank of corrosion resistance of a particular steel when compared to the other steels in the chart. It is not based of numeric value determined by a test. Except for hardness which I take Rockwell averages of different knife makers, and Edge retention which I have pulled data in from CATRA tests resources.

Again, thanks for your feedback. [/]

So you're assigning numeric values to something that in your admission, is not based on numeric value. So how can that assigned value be relevant?

 

[hardheart]

There are published numerical assessments of corrosion resistance if you can locate the charts.

People rank their favorite steels with no test methodology all the time. Making a chart of the same personal opinions and posting it on a discussion forum is no issue at all. I could make a bar graph ranking my favorite desserts, doesn't mean it has to go for peer review. I hope no one actually believes all the information put out in advertisements just because they include a visual aid.

 

[KennethW]

So you're assigning numeric values to something that in your admission, is not based on numeric value. So how can that assigned value be relevant?

This was stated before, but I will say it again for you.

In one of my previous replies to someone, I had initially said that this post was for a friend I had who wanted a new EDC, and had no idea about the different steels. He asked me to come up with a way to help him tell the difference between the steels, as so he could compare them against one another.

If someone asks which on of those steels is superior in rust resistant. Does my chart help them? yes, the answer would be H-1.

If someone asks which on of those steels has superior sharpness. Does my chart help them? yes, the answer would be VG-10.

If someone asks which on of those steels is superior in hardness. Does my chart help them? yes, the answer would be ZDP-189.

So on and so forth...........

The bottom line, did this chart help my friend who was looking for a new EDC? yes it did. he wanted a small lightweight, easily deployed knife which he would use to open boxes and cut his fruits (dont ask me why he didnt have a separate knife for food ) he wanted it to hold an edge better, be sharper, and more rust resistant than his old EDC, which after inspection turned out to be a 440C blade. He also didnt want to spend more than AUD$100 on it. So in the end, he went with a Native that had a serrated VG-10 blade.

For those masters of steel in this forum, this chart will be common knowledge to you, and therefore useless. But for those who know nothing about steels, it definitely helps.

 

[KennethW]

There are published numerical assessments of corrosion resistance if you can locate the charts.

People rank their favorite steels with no test methodology all the time. Making a chart of the same personal opinions and posting it on a discussion forum is no issue at all. I could make a bar graph ranking my favorite desserts, doesn't mean it has to go for peer review. I hope no one actually believes all the information put out in advertisements just because they include a visual aid.

You are correct, there are charts of steels with numerical CR assessments, but they never include all the types of steels you want to compare.

Example:
I have a chart with all the CR ratings of 420 and 440 steels, and I have another chart with all the CPM steels, and another with all the Japanese steels. But none of them cross reference with each other (eg: 420J2 vs CTS-XHP). So in order to get a better picture of all the listed charts out there, I had to do some guess work and look for references which compared steels in 2 separate charts (eg: 440C and CPM-154), and I made sure I had at least couple of solid references before assigning them a rank. And yes this is a very crude method (said this a million times already), but for the purpose it was intended for, it is sufficient.

Whether or not anyone believe the data in my post is definitely up to them. I've tried to make the data as accurate as possible given the available time and expertise I have.

 

[Popsickle]

i recommend you read this post. as it isnt the END ALL to tests i have found this to be pretty accurate.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

also, your post is VERY informative and i do see nit picking to a certain extent in this entire thread. I believe that this is something that makes sense to you because you put it together for your friend in a way that YOU wanted to explain it to him.... which is fine. there are some accurate facts and some not so. Using search, google, checking past threads would also help you to bring together what you are trying to accomplish. I also commend you for your ability to be patient with others opinions and change data appropriately. I like the way your headed...... almost there.

your total point data is what i believe to be throwing people off as well. it may help you you to bring those as their own point values represented above each named steel. Add the toughness factor as well.

 

[KennethW]

i recommend you read this post. as it isnt the END ALL to tests i have found this to be pretty accurate.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

also, your post is VERY informative and i do see nit picking to a certain extent in this entire thread. I believe that this is something that makes sense to you because you put it together for your friend in a way that YOU wanted to explain it to him.... which is fine. there are some accurate facts and some not so. Using search, google, checking past threads would also help you to bring together what you are trying to accomplish. I also commend you for your ability to be patient with others opinions and change data appropriately. I like the way your headed...... almost there.

your total point data is what i believe to be throwing people off as well. it may help you you to bring those as their own point values represented above each named steel. Add the toughness factor as well.

Thanks for you feedback Popsickle.
And thanks for that link you listed, it is definitely an interesting read indeed.

You kind words are greatly appreciated. My post is a "work in progress". It is FAR from finished, and I will continue to evolve it according to the feedback I get from individuals such as yourself and others, who give constructive criticism.

I had the chart originally with multiple bars measuring each attribute individually, but the chart became too long and messy even with only 5 steels, now its at 17 steels (so you can imagine). As a result, I then stacked the bars, and gave them data labels to distinguish them instead.

I will be adding toughness, as well as wear resistance and a few other attributes in future. But toughness is a little difficult, as getting the references for them is a pain. However, 'it is' coming along....... albeit very slowly.

 

[Joshua J.]

There are a few places where I would adjust steel ratings (S90V is generally not around the same hardness as ZDP-189), but the only glaring problem that I can see at the moment is that H-1 does not rust, it gets the perfect score in that category. I'm not sure what that would look like on a chart like this one though.

 

[Jason B.]

For those masters of steel in this forum, this chart will be common knowledge to you, and therefore useless. But for those who know nothing about steels, it definitely helps.

From the point of view of a experienced user of various steels I would say no it does not. It does add to the vast misinformation of the internet though.

I give you credit for your efforts but its not a subject you can be vague about.

 

[gmarthur]

Am I the only one who wishes he would not type in the colored font. I don't even want to try reading it.


As to the graph just put a note on it that says everything is based only on your opinion and the numbers mean nothing. Then everyone will get off your case.

 

[Jason B.]

+1 Orange is hard to read

 

[singularity35]

Am I the only one who wishes he would not type in the colored font. I don't even want to try reading it.


As to the graph just put a note on it that says everything is based only on your opinion and the numbers mean nothing. Then everyone will get off your case.

Yes and yes.

 

[marcinek]

From the point of view of a experienced user of various steels I would say no it does not. It does add to the vast misinformation of the internet though.

I give you credit for your efforts but its not a subject you can be vague about.

Thank you, knifenut1013. You beat me to it. For those masters of steel in this forum, this chart is not common knowledge - its nonsense "junk science." For those who know nothing about steels, it only adds to the misinformation out there.

 

[marcinek]

also, your post is VERY informative and i do see nit picking to a certain extent in this entire thread.

If pointing out nonsense data put in a pretty graph and passed off as informative is "nitpicking," then I guess I'm guilty of nitpicking.

 

[marcinek]

And by the way, I'm not a "master of steel" or a "steel snob" or a metallurgist or a government statistician. But when I see a graph that wouldn't pass muster in an 8th grade science fair, I know it.

If you have an opinion about steels, lets hear it. But please don't try to pass that opinion off as "statistics." It just isn't.

And by the way when you said "As illustrated in the chart, I do believe s90v holds an edge better than s30v, and from the resources I've seen, this is the consensus. If you have a resource that states otherwise, please let me know and I'll gladly update my post." to Popsickle, he doesn't have to come up with a resource that says otherwise....he already did state otherwise in the post you replied to.

Again, you are under the belief that your resources are definitive fact and they are not.

 

[Gator97]

While it is true that it may not be a pin point precision decimal rating. But if 10 sites say H-1 is more resistant than VG-10/154CM/440C, wouldnt you be inclined to believe that it holds at least some truth?

Depends on the sites Lots of sites will tell you that full tang is a must for a kitchen knife, yet it has very little to do with actual kitchen needs. Point is, whether you mean/want or not, giving decimal point precision indices will lead inexperienced or semi experienced folk to make assumptions about your data which may not be correct, or you may not even intended.

Edge retention which I have pulled data in from CATRA tests resources.

If possible, Can you share those please? I don't think I have seen ZDP-189 CATRA tests for example.

If someone asks which on of those steels has superior sharpness. Does my chart help them? yes, the answer would be VG-10.

I might be missing something, but how does corrosion resistance/edge retention/average hardness translate into superior sharpness? Generally speaking, I can put considerably thinner edge on 65-67HRC ZDP-189 knife and it'll last longer for light cutting than VG-10 even at 62HRC. It has more to do with grain size and hardness than with the properties listed in the chart.

 

[marcinek]

I might be missing something, but how does corrosion resistance/edge retention/average hardness translate into superior sharpness? Generally speaking, I can put considerably thinner edge on 65-67HRC ZDP-189 knife and it'll last longer for light cutting than VG-10 even at 62HRC. It has more to do with grain size and hardness than with the properties listed in the chart.

That's because ZDP-189 has a sharpness of 3.12, while VG-10 only has a sharpness of 2.83.

 

[Buck_110]

But as for now, the index is based on a general consensus of users and resources.

This is the exact reason your collected numbers are just that; collected numbers. Nothing more, nothing less.
Data(unbiased facts) is based on results, NOT hearsay, opinions, assumptions, or feelings. Data is not the least bit subjective. The term "subjective data" is an oxymoron.

While it is true that it may not be a pin point precision decimal rating. But if 10 sites say H-1 is more resistant than VG-10/154CM/440C, wouldnt you be inclined to believe that it holds at least some truth?

The internet is the single largest source of erroneous and biased information on the planet.
Anybody can post anything; right, wrong, or indifferent.
This is especially true for wikipedia.com, which you have been citing as a source for your information.
Nothing on wikipedia.com is confirmed or denied. The only criteria is that the site's software must recognize cited references as being published. Cited references don't have to be accurate, or the least bit relevant to qualify.

 

[marcinek]

By the way....I don't know if this has been noted already, but that graph supposes that corrosion resistance, edge retention, and average hardness are of equal importance in the quality of a blade steel, which isn't true.

 

[Bill1170]

A single report of a direct comparison between two different steels in two otherwise identical blades performing the same exact task a measured number of times would carry more weight than this entire chart. I appreciate the desire to simplify complex issues down to neat graphics, but using opinions posted on the internet as the "raw data" is not going to give a valid result. Garbage in, garbage out.