Starting to think I just lost two grand..

I ahve delt with Robert myself and even though he is very busy and VERY slow to respond, he always makes things right in the end...And his work is very nice...It may take a bit more time, but I know you will NOT get ripped off by Robert...He's a good guy!
 
It may take a bit more time said:
If you contract with someone and they dont do the work and refund your money in installments..you've already been ripped off.:thumbdn:
Click to expand...
 
What Twirl FAILED to MENTION:

He has called me almost every DAY since our first contact, Sometimes several times a day.
Took more than three months to get a final design to me.
Sent a CAD designed Email of his design which contained half of the dimensions needed for a master blank.
Sent pivot pins for the bushings that do not and will never match the tight fit a Bali requires!
Requested ME to fix the problem by continuing to RE-MAKE the master blank.
He now has 1K worth of Useless custom made pivots, which will never fit the bushings properly.
Is COPYING a Microtech Tachion (SP) Bali dimensions almost exactly, No I will not keep it a SECRET JERRY!
Did I MENTION I agreed to Absorb over a Thousand Dollars worth of ATS34 steel which I purchased with the funds?
He has done a Flashlight project
He will make approximately 20 thousand dollars profit if the project is completed and sold.
The $2000 asked for covered my initial time and expenses only.
He has been paid $1000 already and will recieve the rest as soon as I sell a couple more knives---Then we are done.
 
Sounds like you don't owe him anything if that $2000 covered time and initial expenses..........

You did the work he asked, why pay him what you don't owe????
 
Mr.Hankins is a highly respected member of the knife community and I would trust his word over that of many other people.I hope he goes back to making his superb fixed blades.:thumbup:
 
Robert, I have to agree with Wolfmann, you should not have refunded any money. Your time and materials are not free. It looks like you are getting the short end of the stick.
 
Rob Hankins is well known in our little community that was the now defunct Elite Steel in Australia. I would buy off him anytime and a number of our members have his knives!
 
Robert Hankins said:
Thanks for bothering to even warn me of this thread!

What Twirl FAILED to MENTION:
Click to expand...

Another GBU soap opera, with the audience breathlessly glued to the screen. Once again we learn the secret of eternal happiness: wait until both sides have had a chance to be heard.

Twirl, have you been in constant contact with Mr. Hankins?
Why didn't you let him know you posted here?

Did he buy materials and make parts based on your designs?
If so, how much does he really owe you?
 
It sounds to me that the maker is bending over backwards.

He does not have the money because he spent it on the project.

That seems more than reasonable from where I sit.

A Rush to Judgment with Half the Facts.

By refunding any of the money he is actually taking it out of His Own Pocket.

Jim
 
Why should I owe you anything if I could NEVER use any work you did for me?

Secondly, while I was trying to be extremely considerate through all of this, you're attempting to sabotage and backstab anything I have going on.

I'll correct this:

Firstly, no, I am not making 20 grand profit off of this. I have the receipts to prove it. I'd be lucky to get NEAR 28 grand off of selling off the entire set of knives total. So if you think I can make a 100 knives with 8 grand, I must be a genius. As a matter of fact, you have absolutely no right to make that call since you do NOT know what this is costing me. If you want to get a third party to check my receipts, I'd be more than happy to share what everything costs me.

Yes, I do have $1500 worth of bearings that are completely USELESS. Since YOU were not able to make correct bearings for me, I had someone else make it and the tolerances winded being too loose for the pivots. With that being said, I already HAVE new bearings and have new pictures of them, which are perfect. I will NOT use the original sloppy pivots for the knife.

Furthermore, you state having extra materials as being losses on your end. So what about that $1500 of pivots that I made specifically for your blades?

You made your own mistakes with your master blank. If I requested a blank that wanted pivots 12.5mm apart, they'd arrive with 13mm, requiring me to redesign the pivot cups. Then I'd receive another blade with 13.5mm. You verbally said that you "eyeball" these things, so why blame me if you couldnt get it right? I have your blades as proof that your pin geometry NEVER lined up.

IMG_1399.jpg


If you're going to blame this on the cost of the steel, then send me the steel. I should only owe you something if I received something that I could use. If I dont have any useable work, and I've paid you for your time with this, then I've officially been scammed. I paid you for useable blades.

My knife is as different from a Tachyon as it is from a BM42 or a Korth. I had originally based dimensions off of the Tachyon, but that was eventually scrapped and almost NOTHING is similar to the Tachyon anymore. You agreed with using the Tachyon as a base and I have completely redesigned my knife with all new models since we split ways.

Correct, my CAD design was in fact missing some dimensions along the x-axis. This is a moot point however, since you made no effort to match the blade to my CAD drawings anyway. What you WERE provided with, were properly dimensioned pivot geometry. And you failed to made an appropriate blade to even those THREE dimensions or ANY dimensions that I had so why complain about it?

Three months for my design? It took you months and months to get me an unground prototype that was nowhere near what I was looking for. Most of my delays were from you telling me that I needed to have bearings produced since yours would not work. So if you're telling me that the wait time for that process is MY fault, then you are mistaken.

Had you been upfront with me in the first place and wanted to discuss who spent what and etc, then that would have been fine. But no, you continued to avoid me and telling me things that were not true. Calling you every day to bother you? I called to give you updates and new information. You try to make this seem so completely one sided and that minutes of your time is worth its weight in gold while my time isnt worth anything. I guess that's ok because you're the famous R. Hankins and I'm just Jerry Hom.

No doubt about it, I'm a new designer and do have a difficult time with this. But no, I will not release JUNK and I will not rush this knife.

For you to try to use your reputation as a reason to take advantage of me, then shame on you. You continually try to explain your monetary losses with the time you spent and steel you bought. What about the time you've cost me and my material costs? I've obviously invested far more time and money than you have.

I never wanted to make even a mention of any of this to the public. I was willing to wait months and months and deal with everything you've put me through and still, I did not want to tell and show everyone what the quality of your work was nor tell about the exact details of why my business with you ended in the first place. No Robert, it's not about the extra extra thousands that I spent or how patient I had to be, it's the work.

oldblades2.jpg
 
I suggest next time you leave off the pictures or shrink them or put them in another post. I'm not going to ping-pong your response, which runs way off the side of my screen.

If anybody else wants to wade through all that, ... have fun.
 
I have no clue as to what these pictures depict. can anyone explain these to me???
 
Sounds to me like poor or no explicit project requirements.

Seems like that's why there's written contracts so there's no confusion, with explicit performance obligations. Which would seem you'd want to do since this is more like "failed business venture" kinda thing.

So here's my suggestion, forget the remaining 1K. Write better specs, get them made in china, pass the cost on to buyers.
 
twirl said:
Why should I owe you anything if I could NEVER use any work you did for me?

Secondly, while I was trying to be extremely considerate through all of this, you're attempting to sabotage and backstab anything I have going on.

Yes you were pleasent to work with and enjoyed our initial exchanges Thanks for the opportunity. BUT Who started this thread and Did The Check Bounce?

I'll correct this:

Firstly, no, I am not making 20 grand profit off of this. I have the receipts to prove it. I'd be lucky to get NEAR 28 grand off of selling off the entire set of knives total. So if you think I can make a 100 knives with 8 grand, I must be a genius. As a matter of fact, you have absolutely no right to make that call since you do NOT know what this is costing me. If you want to get a third party to check my receipts, I'd be more than happy to share what everything costs me.

Yes, I do have $1500 worth of bearings that are completely USELESS.

Since YOU were not able to make correct bearings for me,

The master blades you recieved from me were "Made to FIT" the bearings and specs you provided. WHAT! (Like the Caveman in the commercial said) I was NEVER asked to make Bearings for you just blades. Would be rather difficult anyway, since I have no CNC Mill or ANY milling machines of any sort in my shop. Thats why they are handmade custom knives.

I had someone else make it and the tolerances winded being too loose for the pivots.

Won't reveal the Bearing/pivot makers name because he used the specs provided and made them exactly as shown in the CAD sent to him.

With that being said, I already HAVE new bearings and have new pictures of them, which are perfect. I will NOT use the original sloppy pivots for the knife.

Furthermore, you state having extra materials as being losses on your end. So what about that $1500 of pivots that I made specifically for your blades?

SEE above responce

You made your own mistakes with your master blank. If I requested a blank that wanted pivots 12.5mm apart, they'd arrive with 13mm, requiring me to redesign the pivot cups. Then I'd receive another blade with 13.5mm. You verbally said that you "eyeball" these things, so why blame me if you couldnt get it right? I have your blades as proof that your pin geometry NEVER lined up.

Yes I did make a mistake. Holes for the Pivots were done with a center punch followed by a pilot hole, next undersized hole and finally lapped to friction fit size. Done on a good quality drill press. The holes for the bearings were EXACTLY right on and done in the same manner. My last communication to you was that I knew the pivot pins were off a little but it would be corrected on the next blade. That blade was made for Bearing spacings and placement.

If you're going to blame this on the cost of the steel, then send me the steel.

Watch for a notice of delivery next week, should this be sent attention Jerry Hom to your Apartment Managers office?

I should only owe you something if I received something that I could use. If I dont have any useable work, and I've paid you for your time with this, then I've officially been scammed. I paid you for useable blades.

My knife is as different from a Tachyon as it is from a BM42 or a Korth. I had originally based dimensions off of the Tachyon, but that was eventually scrapped and almost NOTHING is similar to the Tachyon anymore. You agreed with using the Tachyon as a base and I have completely redesigned my knife with all new models since we split ways.

Correct, my CAD design was in fact missing some dimensions along the x-axis. This is a moot point however, since you made no effort to match the blade to my CAD drawings anyway. What you WERE provided with, were properly dimensioned pivot geometry. And you failed to made an appropriate blade to even those THREE dimensions or ANY dimensions that I had so why complain about it?

Three months for my design? It took you months and months to get me an unground prototype that was nowhere near what I was looking for. Most of my delays were from you telling me that I needed to have bearings produced since yours would not work. So if you're telling me that the wait time for that process is MY fault, then you are mistaken.

Had you been upfront with me in the first place and wanted to discuss who spent what and etc, then that would have been fine. But no, you continued to avoid me and telling me things that were not true. Calling you every day to bother you? I called to give you updates and new information. You try to make this seem so completely one sided and that minutes of your time is worth its weight in gold while my time isnt worth anything. I guess that's ok because you're the famous R. Hankins and I'm just Jerry Hom.

No doubt about it, I'm a new designer and do have a difficult time with this. But no, I will not release JUNK and I will not rush this knife.

For you to try to use your reputation as a reason to take advantage of me, then shame on you. You continually try to explain your monetary losses with the time you spent and steel you bought. What about the time you've cost me and my material costs? I've obviously invested far more time and money than you have.

I am a knifemaker NOT an Design engineer or Machinist. PLEASE feel FREE to research any thread or post I have ever done in the past 8 or so years where I mention my reputation! All of the responces were unsolicited.

I never wanted to make even a mention of any of this to the public. I was willing to wait months and months and deal with everything you've put me through and still, I did not want to tell and show everyone what the quality of your work was nor tell about the exact details of why my business with you ended in the first place. No Robert, it's not about the extra extra thousands that I spent or how patient I had to be, it's the work.
Click to expand...
 
This is a prime example of a novice knife designer and a knifemaker biting off more than they both can chew.

Knives like these are usually made in shops with digital readout milling machines, CNC, surface grinders and precision micro lathes--not by guys with "accurate drill presses".

No offense Robert, but you should have never taken this job. A few bali's maybe, but 100 perfect, uniform blades? NOPE.
 
These are from our last exchange of emails on 3/12/07:

Part of my email:
I have been very patient with the blades and I keep receiving prototypes that both do not match my technical specs or fit my handles. If you cannot make me a blade that works with my handles, then I need my prototypes back, as well as my deposit so I can have these made as soon as possible. It will be a great loss to both of us, and it is the last thing I want. Just by looking at the pictures, I'm sure you have an idea of my disappointment.

Communication has been difficult as well, as it has become increasingly difficult to reach you. If you are sure you want to continue with the blades, let me know and I'll compile a list of technical drawings and geometry solutions and we'll go from there to get this done as soon as possible.

Part of your Response(minus your personal info):
This project was a mistake for me to take on.
I am sorry.
We will have to work out something as far as getting your deposit back. Will have to make a few payments to you, I will send you a check the end of this week. DO NOT freak I will pay you back and eat the cost of the steel.

I had left you a choice of continuing this project or not, and it was your decision to terminate our partnership.

I paid for something, did not receive what I paid for, you terminated the partnership and I asked for my deposit back. I don’t see why everyone is having trouble understanding this.

The end result of that is that we both lost time and money to each other. With regards to my comments about reputation, that was in response to:

Requested ME to fix the problem by continuing to RE-MAKE the master blank.

You just admitted in one of your posts that your pivot pins were off. My liners are made on CAD with CNC laser cutting. They also happen to fit my new blade perfectly. That has nothing to do with the bearings/bushings. Do you really want me to prove all of this?

Anthony is right, the level of consistency required with this run needs computer aided machines. He is right about me being a novice designer, but my handle dimensions came out right on the money, and fully consistent at that. Robert, you had told me that you had all the necessary tools to produce “ready to install” blades.

Robert, I do not believe you are a bad guy and it's not in my best interest to spend my time arguing this back and forth. But when you bring personal matters into this and also try make my knife sound mis-designed and sloppy(which is NOT true), then I will not stand for that. You were wrong to make assumptions about or even discuss my profits and engineering quality of my final product.

I will never, and I mean NEVER, publicly bring about any personal information about you, especially if it is unrelated to this as a whole. What does me having a flashlight project have to do with anything? Does it also matter that every single one of them is consistent, putting out 500 lumens, and that I sold each and every one of them to happy customers?

As for starting this thread, it could be my stubborn-ness to assume that everyone has two thousand dollars in their bank. Followed by you telling me the check was sent out over and over again when it wasn’t, it led me to believe that this check was not coming.

I would rather have the rest of the deposit back, but if after reading this, you truly feel that you do not owe me that and that I’ll never see it, then send the steel.

I just want this whole thing to be behind us and to have the rest of the aggravation spared on both sides. Yes, the check did clear just fine. If you want to clear up further misunderstandings then I am willing to discuss them with you on a civilized level.
 
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