steel, geometry. heat treat.. Pick two

L

LG&M

Joined
Dec 19, 2005
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It's no secret you need all three for a good blade. So why do some manufacturers seam to pick only two?
Which two should you to pick?
Just for fun.
 
Geometry and Heat Treatment.

Geometry - even a thin strip of pot metal cuts better than a block of S110V.

Heat Treat - inferior steels with the right heat treat can outperform superior steels with the wrong heat treat.
 
Geometry cuts.

Steel is the the basis to be able to taken properly geometry and withstand through the cut.

Fancy, expensive steel but with poor heat treat is suck.

Cheap but "suitably" steel with good heat treat is workable.
 
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TravisH said:
Geometry and Heat Treatment.

Geometry - even a thin strip of pot metal cuts better than a block of S110V.

Heat Treat - inferior steels with the right heat treat can outperform superior steels with the wrong heat treat.
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+1, That's a Bingo!
 
Geometry and heat treat, especially in a folder. I'll take steel and heat treat in a fixed, as geometry is more easily modified. Modifying geometry/grind on a folder can be detrimental to the functionality of a folder. For example, a ZT 0561 has a heavy blade and light detent. If you modify geometry too much on that knife the blade will become too light and not flip well. The 0801 on the other hand has a rock hard detent and thinning out that obtuse blade shouldn't effect the action, though you'd be losing the nature of an over built beast and possibly damaging the integrity of the blade.

I am a novice with all of this regarding steel, but my opinion is based on everything I've read here and using reasonable logic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I'm sorry dude, but I don't think reprofiling the edge to change the geometry on any folder is gonna remove enough steel to make the blade light and not flip as well. You'd have to grind half of the blade away to do that.

If I HAD to pick only 2, I'd go with geometry and heat treatment. But why do that when you can have all 3? :thumbup:
 
Steel and HT.....I will let the guy in my sig. line take care of the geometry......

Lets put it this way, I would rather have 3V or 20CV HT'd right, and then let someone like Josh figure out the geometry, then be stuck with something like S30V regardless of geometry or HT.
 
Yes sir. Geometry to me means more than just the very edge of the blade. If a blade doesn't have a grind that I like, it's a definite deal breaker. Right out of the gate. Same with heat treatment. I don't want to go whacking away at stuff with something that will shatter or bend like a warm turd.

Steel? Meh. As long as it's decent, I'm good. I'm not a steel snob. I do have my favorites, but it doesn't have to be the damn alphabet soup of the month "wunderschteel" to work.
 
I prefer steel and heat treat with terrible geometry. The ZT approach is doing something right considering they have great sales.

Joking aside, if I had to take two and couldn't change anything, it would obviously be heat treat and geometry. A perfect geometry and heat treat knife in 440C will outperform a knife in S30V or even give M390 a run for its money when the geometry or heat treat is borked.

If the knife can be modified, heat treat and steel are the most important because geometry is the easiest to change, heat treat is really hard to modify, and steel is obviously impossible to change outside of transmutation.
 
Geometry and HT, though there is no real excuse for poor heat treatment. The specifications are well documented by the steel manufacturers and the equipment standardized. There is no magic to the process.

Post HT reprofiling is a pain in the neck, I'm working on day 4 of reworking a bit on a pocket axe. Not fun, but worth it in the end.
 
As others have said, geometry and heat treatment by a longshot. Of course most manufacturers opt for steel (it's trendy and sells knives) and heat treatment (it keeps knives from being returned) and they ignore the geometry in favor of something flashy looking that sucks for actually cutting things.
 
Geometry and HT, here also.

The difference between a Kershaw HT and a CRKT HT on the same steel is an edge that lasts as twice as long, in my experience.

Although, if you get a good steel, with a good heat treat, you can usually change the edge geometry to suit your taste. Just as with any rule, there are exceptions.....
 
Shorttime said:
Although, if you get a good steel, with a good heat treat, you can usually change the edge geometry to suit your taste.
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Perhaps the OP could correct me if I'm wrong but by geometry I didn't think we were taking about the angle of the edge or secondary bevel. That is in most cases is easy to fix. I thought we were taking about things such as how thick the blade is directly behind the edge, and how rapidly thickness increases from there? These issues are much harder to fix for an end user and IMO prevalent on a lot of modern knives.
 
Hacked said:
Perhaps the OP could correct me if I'm wrong but by geometry I didn't think we were taking about the angle of the edge or secondary bevel. That is in most cases is easy to fix. I thought we were taking about things such as how thick the blade is directly behind the edge, and how rapidly thickness increases from there? These issues are much harder to fix for an end user and IMO prevalent on a lot of modern knives.
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Blades can be reground, including the primary bevel. It requires a fair amount of skill and I'd much rather pay someone to do it for me than attempt it myself, but it isn't that difficult to find someone to do it for you. Big Chris and Razor Edge Knives from this forum both offer do regrinds.

Of course, one of the other pieces of this puzzle is that heat treatment can be redone as well. People just don't do it or talk about it as often on this forum.

Honestly, many of the answers have been that steel is the least important piece of the equation when it's the one element you can't change.

I would take steel, as I stated, can't change it and I would rather pick my poison, and geometry. Y'all keep mentioning regrinds and that's fine for knives that are too thick, but what if you get a chopper that has a grind and stock that's far too thin? Can't add steel back on.

Then I'd send it off to get heat treated the way I want it.
 
Hacked said:
Perhaps the OP could correct me if I'm wrong but by geometry I didn't think we were taking about the angle of the edge or secondary bevel. That is in most cases is easy to fix. I thought we were taking about things such as how thick the blade is directly behind the edge, and how rapidly thickness increases from there? These issues are much harder to fix for an end user and IMO prevalent on a lot of modern knives.
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Geometry covers the whole. Blade. From the secondary grind to the primary. Thickness, location of the tip. The whole enchilada.
I can & have thinned out a few blades. It never looked great but worked.
Looks like most people want. HT , Geometry , Steel.
I think the geometry is the most subjective. Some people want a slicer , others like a thick ,tank of a blade. All want it to hold a edge.
I see no reason we cant have at least 2 1/2. Good HT , good angles , and at least descent steel. All at a fair price.
Then again what one person sees as a good steel someone else sees junk. Guess you can't please everyone.
 
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