Steel issues

Make sure 80crv2 is on that list. The only "beginner " steel that works well everytime so far has been 15n20. There are tumors that the new 15n20 may not have come from the same mill so that is a open question as well now. I think it's fair that steel is going to come however but it's also fair that it should be stated what is needed to heat treat. I am going to guess that when JT has to re HT those pieces he is in the red and even taking all the steps to do it right had the condition been known would not be profitable especially for small orders.
 
DCamargo said:
So annealed 1080 steel should still be normalized prior to HT? I don't have access to hardness files but will a bad HT knife still skate a file after hardening?
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I forge but if doing stock removal just normalize to it to be sure
Only takes a few minutes really
And a file is near mid 60s so will catch if HT didn't work
 
In answer to the file test on an improperly hardened blade - Yes, a file can skate for many reasons. It can also dig in on a hard blade.
1) Scale is HARD. If the blade is covered with scale from the cycling and HT it can skate a file. Grinding the edge clean and checking the edge is best.
2) Certain structures, like fine pearlite, can skate a file enough to imitate a hard edge.
3) A blade that has decarb on it from forging, normalizing/thermal cycling, and HT can have a layer of very soft decarb on the surface. The file will dig in easily and appear to be an unhardened blade. Several more strokes may show harder steel. Again, grinding the edge clean will show the hard steel.
 
Alpha won my business when this issue came to light. Keep in mind that the issue came to light through this forum, and the good people here who take time to address these issues, while vendors kept quiet and failed to even mention the state of their steel. I don't have time for unknowns.
I know that Chuck is going to take the steps to ensure his product is in the proper state for me to get to work, every time.
 
Alpha won my business because of this very issue as well. I don't buy near as much steel as I'm sure others do but it means alot to me that I'm receiving a product that will work how it is supposed to with little issue.

I've received mislabeled steel from other suppliers, steel that just won't harden, and steel that had to be normalized alot before hardening. I've got 3 under 3 and I only get 20-30 minutes here... An hour there. I don't have time period let alone to mess with 80crv2 that won't harden lol
 
from a business standpoint i would probably assume that if someone is sending out blanks for heat treat, that they have no H.T. equipment of their own. i would also assume i would have to normalize/thermal cycle and charge $ accordingly so i would not have to to the job a second time. if a forged blade comes in, i would not want to rely on their grain refinement and normalizing, because the chance exists i might have to go back and do it a second time.
 
We normalize and thermal cycle all forged blades. We don’t charge extra for it because we don’t get very many of them.
The thing that gets me is the unknown. Not knowing forces me to do extra work on everything. This is why I’m thinking I want to put a supplier drop down so thy can select where thy got the steel from.
 
JTknives said:
We normalize and thermal cycle all forged blades. We don’t charge extra for it because we don’t get very many of them.
The thing that gets me is the unknown. Not knowing forces me to do extra work on everything. This is why I’m thinking I want to put a supplier drop down so thy can select where thy got the steel from.
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I always ask.
 
john april said:
perhaps that is true, but by recommending some and not mentioning others you are doing the same thing in reverse :rolleyes:
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I don't think it really disparages everyone else. I'm sure that AKS sells some steels from the same mills in the same condition as others. When it's important that you know (like the post I replied to,) there is just exactly one supplier making certain that you do.
 
Normalizing and thermal cycling SHOULD, but certainly doesn’t always work if the steel you start with is garbage.
Especially if you spend many hours working on a piece with a hamon or Damascus that you spent tons of time trying to make.
So saying 1600° or 1650° For 20 minutes should take care of the spheroidizing, except when it doesn’t.
And just hearing from a lot of people that “swear by their steel” doesn’t mean jack shit either. Do you know how they tested it? Did they get it analyzed?
 
(read the following with intense sarcasm)

No way I ship my blades to NASA to HT in space. That's the only way. :p
Only in low Earth orbit can CPM M4 be HT'd in an oxygen free environment with a "cookbook" protocol from the Crucible data sheet that over Austenizes and they'll even oversoak free of charge giving me horrific retained austenite and a slower forced air vacuum quench to boot. YES, They'll even wait till the next day to cryo for me to reduce the cryos effects and even add a lovely snap temper before cryo to further this for free.
But hey, this is aerospace level HT.

All this for marketi...I mean performance.
It's a NASA HT, not some guy in a garage.

People with "easybake toaster ovens" are no match for this level.
:D
 
This issue comes up time and time again. I’m not ragging on JTKnives for the post, really quite the contrary.

No one, at least in this thread so far as I can tell, is naming names, but many of us know who we are talking about. New Jersey Steel Baron. The issue of how heavily spheroidized their steel is has been quite a topic of discussion here. And honestly speaking, from my perspective, that issue was made known very early on and no change was made. However, with that said, I know for a fact (they stated so in a reply to a thread about this very topic), they plan to contact the mill and change the annealing procedure. Hopefully this is going to happen. I have not bought any steel from them because of this very issue, and I completely agree with JTKnives.

(Makers who forge will most likely not identify with all of this because their forging heats break up the coarse spheroidized anneal).

Makers like myself who do strictly stock removal should not have to normalize (and then subsequently cycle) ANY steel. Steel should always be supplied in a “fine spheroidized” state and not in a coarse spheroidized state. That is too much time wasted just to get a steel set up properly to harden. The only possible reason I can think of to have such heavily spheroidized steel is for CNC operations where tooling life is a concern. And maybe that’s the reasoning behind NJSB and their low alloy steel.

But there are other issues concerning this anneal problem that I see as very odd and completely unnecessary. Let’s take the recent W2 for example. It needs to be normalized because of its “as supplied” condition. But 1900°F? Really? If W2 was heavily spheroidized, 1650°F is the normalizing temp for a 0.95% low alloy carbon steel. You shouldn’t even begin to get close to needing 1900°F to normalize W2. That to me just screams “problem”. Add that to the fact that the carbon content was tested and found seriously lacking, I refused to even try it.

I’m not trying to throw anyone under the bus. Honestly I get sick of the “lets not name things” thing. I’m not about to try to offend anyone. But I am also about truth and transparency and not “beating around the bush”. And I am also hopeful for the future with NJSB. They have, finally, come to the realization that their products are not perfect and indeed do have issues that need to be addressed. They admitted such and publicly stated they were going to work with the mill and have these things fixed. I think that shows humility, genuine concern, and a desire to offer the best product they can. I’m looking forward to “hopefully” doing more business with NJSB moving forward.
 
All good I guess, except for the poor guys that had to recall their products and end their knife making careers.
 
NJSB is now advertising that their steel comes with certs so I don't think they are deaf to problems that have been brought up.
 
JTknives said:
I have been really happy with the service and materials I get from chuck at AKS.
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Well, that's good to hear, because at the moment all the steel I have is from AKS, and I'm thinking of having you do the next HT for me. :thumbsup:
 
Storm W said:
NJSB is now advertising that their steel comes with certs so I don't think they are deaf to problems that have been brought up.
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That's all well and good I guess, but what does that really mean? That they certify the chemical composition of the steel? Sure. What the annealing process was prior to shipment to the distributor? Probably not. Honestly I don't know, though anyone can feel free to correct or enlighten.
Personally, I've never had any problems with the handful of steel I've gotten from Aldo, though lately I do tend to prefer Chuck at AKS, mainly because the prices seem a little better, quality is always superb, and processing and shipping seem to be faster and cheaper.
 
I've been tempted to try NJSB again just to get some thicker 15N20, but since I have no clue what state the steel is in I won't do it. I know some of you guys love the testing and experimenting part of this, but I have so little shop time to begin with, I don't have the time. I'll stick with what I know.
All it would take is a statement of the state of the steel in with their description. Why they continue not to include this is beyond me.
 
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