Steel That Just Won't Take an Edge?

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There is probably a lot of variation in these due to price, I have seen the geometry scatter widely, some have secondary edge bevels, some do not, few tend to be very sharp. You often get a lot of conflicting reports on such knives.

-Cliff
 
sodak said:
I have found Opinels (whatever high carbon steel they use) to be very hard to put an edge on. I have one that has large chunks of the edge come off when you put it on a coarse stone. I don't know if it's heat treat or steel, but it was a complete waste of money to buy these knives.

I have found S30V to be difficult to put a really sharp edge on also.

Some of the easiest for me have been 1095, VG10, and D2. All ground very thin first. They just have a "feel" for them....
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It must be technique, because I can sharpen S30V blades to scary sharp with very little effort, but then I end up spending more time on softer stainless like Victorinox uses.

I wonder if some people's experience with "[blank] steel is hard to sharpen" is just that one steel or another fits their sharpening technique better. I know it's the case with me and over time I'm learning to correct it.
 
Re: Opinels
There is probably a lot of variation in these due to price, I have seen the geometry scatter widely, some have secondary edge bevels, some do not, few tend to be very sharp. You often get a lot of conflicting reports on such knives.
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I should have been more specific, usually the edge that comes on them is pretty poor, it can barely be called sharpened. However, the steel being 1070 (simple carbon steel) at about 57-58RC is very simple to sharpen. It responds well to abbrasives, easily being ground, and the edge is crisp enough.

Indeed, even if the primary grind geometery is a little off, a half hour with a mouse pad, sandpaper and a marker will have it in fine shape, of just few minutes on the belt sander putting a full (spine to edge) convex edge on it.

I ahve a number of Opinles of various sizes (almost all are carbon steel) including some stock ones that I keep in reserve for when the others are worn or given away.

I am working on a project now, I took the blade out of a #8 (the locking ring snaps off, and the balde is held with a peened pin), and have an old high speed saw blade I need to reshape and grind to make a replacement blade.

I want to use the geometery Alvin describes using on his knives.
 
I think that is how Alvin got into making knives, usually replacement blades on Stockman patterns, full hard 1095 or M2 blades with extreme hollow grinds.

Could be steel variance on the Opinels I saw, some of the gouged rather than be cut, I have ground other steels that thin and thinner with similar abrasives so it isn't a geometry or finish issue.

-Cliff
 
i cant do anything with my gerber same story with my zytel ti-lite maybe its what im using to sharpen them. or maybe its my technique. anyway im just complaining.
 
UnixDork said:
It must be technique, because I can sharpen S30V blades to scary sharp with very little effort, but then I end up spending more time on softer stainless like Victorinox uses.

I wonder if some people's experience with "[blank] steel is hard to sharpen" is just that one steel or another fits their sharpening technique better. I know it's the case with me and over time I'm learning to correct it.
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You're probably right. My experience is definitely counter to most people's, so I try to be very careful not to be argumentive, and use lots of disclaimers such as YMMV.

I wish I could watch others with different experience sharpen the same knives, that would be interesting!
 
I have found that edge profile inhibits getting a blade really sharp more than steel quality.
 
I've been sharpening knives for over 45 years and I have seen many bad blades that just didn't want to take a fine edge. This includes spending a year going door-to-door sharpening knives, scissors, and garden tools to earn money for college. When I started out stainless steel blades were relatively uncommon. Back then the really obnoxious blades were the ones that were chrome plated. I ran across ornamental knives and fancy kitchen sets which had hard and grainy steel under the chrome. It was a pain to reprofile these blades since the chrome was so hard and the results were commonly second rate. I don't think it was burr formation.

The next type of steel that has given me problems is L6. I think this may be a burr problem. I have had knives made from old sawmill blades that took 3x the time I would have expected to get a fine edge. Even my 1968 Gerber Mark II didn't get as sharp as regular carbon steel.

Cheap stainless steel can be difficult to sharpen compared to its edge holding abilities. Nameless stainless is often very soft and prone to forming burrs. I'm used to that and it doesn't slow me down. There are other categories that just seem to have grain structure problems. These are alloys like 440A with a bad heat treatment. When I hone them the hone doesn't feel like it is biting smoothly into the alloy. As I get to the finishing stages the edge just doesn't want to shave. I can get shaving performance, but it helps a lot if I use diamond hones as I do my reprofiling. The couple of Gerber stainless blades I have had fell into this category.

Cliff has indicated that some stainless blades don't do well when you profile them to a low angle (which is what I generally do). The material has a coarse structure which breaks down and falls apart when it gets very thin. That is sort of the sense that I get on some of these alloys.

Yet another category of alloys that are a hastle to sharpen are some of the Japanese molybdenum stainless alloys. These alloys are very abrasion resistant and take a long time to sharpen. They don't seem to end up as sharp as simpler stainless or alloys with vanadium or tungsten. I get a lot of used kitchen knives to use at the local soup kitchen and also for sharpening experiments. When I find an American styled Japanese manufactured kitchen knife labeled "molybdenum stainless" I know it will be a hastle to sharpen.

There are major brands of kitchen knives that don't take the best edges. Victorinox and Chicago Cutlery are a couple that come to mind. They have very practical designs and I own quite a few, but they are distinctly a step down in sharpenability from some other brands.

I think the issues relate to the purity of the alloys, the heat treatment, and the resulting granularity of the finished blade. Carbon steel is not as sensitive to quality issues, but as soon as you start adding alloying elements there are oportunities to end up with a grittier or gummier material. Stainless is full of chromium which can make a lousy mix. Some simple stainless like 12C27 or MBS26 can take an exceptional edges without adding fancy extra alloying elements. So I guess a really clean mix well done makes a good stainless. I think that commodity alloys like the 440 or 420 series can come with a lot of crap in the mix. The japanese believe that adding molybdenum can reduce carbide size, but I don't find ATS-34 to take a particularly good edge. It is also hard to cut. Adding vanadium or tungsten does seem to give better razor edges on the other hand.

If you have an extra-fine diamond hone you can make almost any alloy cry uncle. Then you just have to experiment a little to find out how to get that last little bit extra. I find some problem alloys get duller if I strop them. I get the best result if I do the last little bit of finishing by increasing my honing angle just slightly and using an extra-fine ceramic hone. I do this work honing edge forwards to reduce burr formation.
 
So DMTs all the way to fine, then Brown and WHite Ceramics should work well on the harder ATS34, etc? What's your experience with S30V and BG42? Thanks
(S30V is easier to touch up than cheap Stainless Steels since the burr goes away)
 
BG42 and S30V both get extremely sharp. The BG42 has stood up well to my tests chopping bones. I haven't really stressed my S30V blade yet. I don't know about touch up time on the S30V since I haven't got it dull yet.

I have a Buck Vanguard Master Series with BG42 alloy blade and a Buck Vanguard Cabela's Alaskan Guide model with an S30V blade that I'm going to do a serious side-by-side comparison some time. So far I can't tell the difference.
 
knifetester said:
I can put an edge on an Opinel that is exceptionally keen with little trouble. Such a knife will readily outcut knives costing 30X as much.
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Yep...for about two cuts.
 
Don Adelfson said:
Yep...for about two cuts.
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The edge lasts a lot longer than that, assuming it is properly sharpened. The one I have easily makes 254 cut on 3/8" hemp (two inch draw) and still has enough cutting ability (~25 lbs on the hemp) to put it well above many knives costing many times more.

-Cliff
 
I have had a hard time with some 154CM and ATS34 steel. I don't know why. I have a BenchMade I just traded for that is one of the ones that is just damn hard to get the kind of edge I want on it on it.

On these I've learned that even though it goes against the way I'd normally sharpen a folder the only way I can get a decent edge on them is to take them out to my shop and use the wheels. Once I convinced myself that the by hand thing is just not getting me anywhere I will do that as a last resort.

Then they get a decent edge on them and it always puzzles the crap out of me as to why it is most always a 154CM or ATS34 blade when this happens.
 
Don Adelfson said:
Yep...for about two cuts.
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LOL! Mine was good for one cut in hemp and the edge folded over, visible to the naked eye. Piece of junk. It must have been the heat treat. After Unixdork's comments, I dug it back out of the trash and put it on my edgepro. With as little pressure as humanly possible, my coarse stone (180 grit) took major chunks out of the edge, easily visible to the eye. Looked like I had been chopping cinderblocks, it was that bad. I had to go to 300 (max grit) and all the way up to the 3000 polishing tapes. I got an incredible edge, and like Don surmised, lasted **one** cut. I took the pleasure of snapping it in my vice before retiring it permanantly in the trash where it belongs. Someday I might try another, but that was a wasted $7. Oh well. I didn't care for the ergonomics of the handle anyway, but maybe I'm sour grapes on Opinels now.... :D

At least now I know what a bad steel's characteristics are! I found it surprising, because my Moras are cheap also, and their steels have been pretty good.
 
STR said:
...take them out to my shop and use the wheels.
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When they get dull do you need to go back to the wheels again?

sodak said:
...that was a wasted $7.
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Everyone has a bad knife every now and again, even the top companies put out lemons. I have only seen a few Opinel's but all were solid. Always sucks getting a bad knife, it takes a long time to get rid of that first impression.

-Cliff
 
On some knives Cliff I can't say because they were other peoples knives and I never saw them again once I gave them back to the owners.

On my own I have had to use the wheels again to get them up to the level of 'bite' that I like yes. These ones I'm referring to just don't seem to want to get that edge by hand for some reason. I have run into it time and again on 154CM in particular where it just stubbornly refuses to impress me and now and then on ATS-34.

Most recenlty the Ares by BenchMade and a Mini UMS by Microtech. One ATS-34 and the other 154CM.

Even my diamond sharpeners don't seem to be able to make these take the impressive edge I can get other steels to take doing nothing differently.

I must admit that even though the wheels get them sharp they still don't quite impress me as much as the ones that don't give me this trouble. I don't know if it is a problem with the carbide size, the hardness or what. It just comes up a lot with these two steels for me.
 
I have seen the same thing with Benchmades, the steel micro-chips under the hone unless really light pressure is used. It might be the wheels are just giving enough to keep the pressure down. How is the edge retention?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The edge lasts a lot longer than that, assuming it is properly sharpened. The one I have easily makes 254 cut on 3/8" hemp (two inch draw) and still has enough cutting ability (~25 lbs on the hemp) to put it well above many knives costing many times more.

-Cliff
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I have three Opinels...I am going to proceed on the real possibility that I haven't sharpened them properly and give them another try.
 
Once I get them sharp to my satisfaction the edge retention is great. I have not had any issues there. Just a bit of pulling my hair out getting it there.

This ATS-34 Ares Pre-Production folder was a bear to get to where I could live with the sharpness but I finally managed. It just took some cussing and four or five times longer than most other knives to finally please me. But it still doesn't quite have the 'bite' that some of my other knives of different steels do. I really don't have this problem with any other steels. I have better luck getting a cheap Gerber of bottom end steel sharp than some of my so called premium ATS34/154CM blades.

Whats funny is I almost always end up carrying a blade of one of the two steels I hate the most because everything else about them makes it such a great knife.

For example the 420 Mike SnodyDesigned BM Resistor and this Ares. Both super knvies, but I just wish they had a different steel available for the blade.

One of these days I'm going to get a wild hair and just copy one of these blades out of a steel I like, like BG42 or D2 maybe and put my blade in this body. Just haven't found the motivation yet I guess.
 
Don Adelfson said:
I am going to proceed on the real possibility that I haven't sharpened them properly and give them another try.
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The biggest problem with knives with fairly soft steels is leaving a burr on the edge. This is a factor with rods usually, the edge retention is just a fraction of optimal then, but 1-2 cuts is too poor even for that. Sounds like you got a run of bad luck with the blades. It is just a matter of statistics that someone will get the unlikley run of hitting a bad bunch.

STR said:
Once I get them sharp to my satisfaction the edge retention is great.
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That is different than my experience which is the edge retention tends to be poor with such blades, are you seeing a geometry influence?

-Cliff
 
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