Steel That Just Won't Take an Edge?

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This link has some info about various types of blade steels and may be of some value. Have a great day!

http://www.huntingblades.com/tyofstusinkn.html

Some of the new steels like the Spyderco Salt models and combo steel-ceramic ones I have never tried to sharpen. Some of the unknown steel could be sharpened only with a very light touch of the stone. Anything more seemed to break down the edge.
 
Bobwhite said:
That chart in the link rate 1095 as "poor" overall. I gotta disaggree on that.
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BW -

Why?

Where's your list?

Remember they are also rating rust resistence not just edge holding ability.
 
I have no list. I disagree because 1095 is a great steel. If you rate steels by rust resistance primarily, I can see how it would rate low. But in my experience, too much emphasis is place on corrosion resistance. If you care for your knife and don't abuse it, corrosion is not much of an issue. The blade patinas, sure, but it won't rust away if you clean it after use and oil it periodically. It is and has been a standard steel for edges tools for a long, long time. It is still in use because it works and does it very well. I'll give you that 1095 is not a good choice for work around salt water, but for everything else it is great. Some people don't like it for food prep, they say it leaves a taste on the food, but that has not been my experience. It sharpens well and holds an edge. It can be made sharper than stainless steels due to grain structure. It is not brittle. It is tough. It can be differentialy hardened. The only place it falls short at all is that it can rust. It won't rust if you take care of it though. I don't think many knifemakers would rate 1095 as a 'poor' steel 'overall'. They might say it makes a poor stain or corrosion resistant steel where that would be concern. But 'poor overall' is misleading. It focuses on one weakness and ignores all the strengths.
 
[1095]

Bobwhite said:
If you rate steels by rust resistance primarily, I can see how it would rate low.
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It also rates it as poor in terms of easy of sharpening, that is an odd perspective.

-Cliff
 
1095 is only hard to sharpen if it is compared against much softer steels. That chart has an odd ranking system that is biased towards softer alloys. For example it ranks 12c27 at around 57 RC above BG42 at 60. While the 12c27 is easier to sharpen, that is the only way it even competes with BG42. I like 12c27 a lot, but it tends to be in a secondary class due to its softness.

Back to the topic of this thread--steel that just won't take an edge. Maybe other people have softer or thicker hair than I have, but for me it is critical to have a very accute edge angle in order to shave well. So for me the most common reason that a knife doesn't want to take a shaving edge is that I haven't honed it at a low enough angle. It doesn't matter if I knock the edge back by 1/32 of an inch if I don't do it at a low angle. Some alloys take a lot of work to reprofile and I move on to micro-bevelling before I have really reached the edge cleanly at my back bevel angle. To be sure of getting a clean shave I really need the edge to be honed to under 10-degrees per side (an edge angle of 20 degrees).

Usually when I don't get a good shaving edge I just have to take the blade to my belt sander and reprofile the edge to 9 degrees per side--then do my sharpening at 10 degrees. To get 10 degrees (approx) on my Sharpmaker I put the rods in the 30-degree slots and use another rod as a fulcrum under the middle of the Sharpmaker base. By tipping the base back and forth I can subtract around 5 degrees from my honing angles to convert the 30-degree slots to 20-degree. Just last night I did that to an old SAK that didn't shave right after I sharpened it using the Sharpmaker alone. I just wasn't removing enough material at a low enough angle with those ceramic rods.
 
Jeff Clark said:
That chart has an odd ranking system ...
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Indeed, look at 1095 and 420, both are the same hardness in the chart, 1095 is poor and 420 is very easy to sharpen. A number of the stainess steels are even harder than 1095 and still ranked as easier to sharpen.

-Cliff
 
So I will go and shoot my mouth off, but that table is very misleading on a number of points. Has anybody seen an 440A steel hardened to 77 Rc? Is that even possible, or just a misprint?

154CM rates "Very Excellent" in retention while ATS-34 rates "Excellent", riiiight :rolleyes:. Then without any further explanation they throw in one steel that is not stainless, while all others are and its still rated on the same scale as the others in terms of rust resistance??? And the hardness rating...what's up with that? On what is that based, if I recall correctly, any steel with at least a carbon content or 0.6% can be hardened to maxium hardness of something like 65 Rc (whether that is sensible or not is a different issue), so the hardness rating of 1095 is 56-58??? And finally, the capabilities of the author to add and divide are suspect at best. If this is indeed, as it makes you believe, an average ranking, than how do you get from Poor-Excellent-Fair-Fair a "very good" (which isn't part of the scale, but oh well) while a Poor-Excellent-Good-Good gets only a "good" when your scale is Poor-Fair-Good-Excellent. :rolleyes:

I don't think I have to say what exactly I think of this table....
 
Most of the time I use a spyderco tri angle system with all 3 grades of available ceramics. After finding the blade's own natural angle that works best with a given blade it is usually just a matter of time. With a bit of work I have been able to touch up the edges on every blade I own....save one... a Gerber Applegate folder. I can get it "sharp" but not as sharp as all the others. (All the others being BM, Victorinox, Sheffield, RJ Martin, Kershaw, Chris Reeve, Microtech, Boker and even no name Taiwan made throwers which were really messed up, etc there are too many to list..) But the Gerber Applegate, I must say in my opinion takes a lousy edge. Maybe something to do with the angle of the original grind? :confused:
 
Bobwhite said:
I have no list. I disagree because 1095 is a great steel. If you rate steels by rust resistance primarily, I can see how it would rate low. But in my experience, too much emphasis is place on corrosion resistance. If you care for your knife and don't abuse it, corrosion is not much of an issue. The blade patinas, sure, but it won't rust away if you clean it after use and oil it periodically. It is and has been a standard steel for edges tools for a long, long time. It is still in use because it works and does it very well. I'll give you that 1095 is not a good choice for work around salt water, but for everything else it is great. Some people don't like it for food prep, they say it leaves a taste on the food, but that has not been my experience. It sharpens well and holds an edge. It can be made sharper than stainless steels due to grain structure. It is not brittle. It is tough. It can be differentialy hardened. The only place it falls short at all is that it can rust. It won't rust if you take care of it though. I don't think many knifemakers would rate 1095 as a 'poor' steel 'overall'. They might say it makes a poor stain or corrosion resistant steel where that would be concern. But 'poor overall' is misleading. It focuses on one weakness and ignores all the strengths.
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There is no better steel for a knife blade than 1095, or any other high carbon-non stain-less steel. All of the confusing stain--less wonder steels they invent on a daily basis can't touch it and are simply an attempt to duplicate a 1095 that won't rust. But they all have major drawbacks. Knifemakers had it right the first time--1095. Save the stain--less for the trim in your bathroom.
 
I've noticed throughout this thread that many people compain about not being able to get a decent edge on their various Gerber blades. I think it relates more to the original grind of the blade. From the factory, mine (Gerber Gator) would not sharpen easily, but it would sharpen with some effort. I finally decided to put the Foley-Belsaw to it and reprofile the blade. After reprofiling, I polished to a razor sharp edge on the buffing wheel. After 60 days of daily "normal" use (cutting boxes, straps, rubber hoses like those used on gas pumps, and other miscellanious things) the edge is still sharp enough to shave.

Should I have had to go through the effort and hassle to get the blade right? No. Will the blades take and hold an edge? Yes, with a lot of work and aggrivation that shouldn't have been necessary in the first place.
 
I've only been sharpening for about 27 years, with decent results for the last 25 or so. :D

I'll have to echo those who cite heat treatment as the major culprit, especially with the various stainless allows. I had a Benchmade made of ATS-34 that was just too soft (for the thin edge I created after reprofiling). I've had much better results with harder ATS-34. The same goes for AUS8A. Cold Steel Voyagers take a wicked edge very easily, but I have a Camillus EDC in the same that just won't get to the point I like it. Similar problems with 440C with bad heat treatments (a Buck Hilo and an old Browning folder come to mind, the former too soft and the latter too hard).

Plain carbon and tool steels are far more forgiving in my experience, although proper heat treatment is still essential of best results. Any well made knife made of 1095 with decent edge geometry is going to be a pleasure to sharpen, hone, use, and maintain.


Speaking of Alvin ... I saw his name mentioned in this topic, but I wasn't able to associate him with a specific userid. I've been away from here for a while, and I haven't communicated with Alvin since the days we were all limited to rec.knives! So ... will Alvin please wave at me, or someone point me to his userid?
 
I use 3/32" thick 1095 almost exclusively now in my hand made folders and really like everything about it. I don't find it harder to sharpen than any of the other steels I have in my knife collection with the exception of 154CM/ATS34. As I've said many times I can get both of these steels sharp and they even shave above the arm but the edge is just not up to par with a VG10, S30V or some of the BG42, or D2 and 1095 blades I have. I don't know why, but the edge just doesn't have the same bite on the 154CM/ATS34 steels for me. They keep what edge I get on them for a long time though and I do have plenty of knives made out of both so it isn't enough to keep me from buying them, I'd just have to say of all the steels I've become familar with the ones that give me the most trouble are those two. I most always buy any blades I use of 154CM or ATS34 in a combo edge just for this very reason. Otherwise I prefer plain edged folders.
 
rhino said:
Speaking of Alvin ... I saw his name mentioned in this topic, but I wasn't able to associate him with a specific userid.
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He doesn't post here though it would be entertaining if he did.

-Cliff
 
My opinion avoid S30V. Too hard to sharpen and doesn't hold an edge much longer to make it worth the sharpening time.

I jumped on here to see if anyone had experience with 01 high carbon vs 1095?
 
If you are having sharpening issues, please post your question in a new thread in the Maintenance, Tinkering and Embellishment sub-forum. Necro-posting to an 18 year old thread is frowned upon. Thank you.

(For the record, O1 and 1095 would be very similar in terms of sharpening ease and results by and large.)
 
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