Stepped pivot on the Military

[Cynic2701]

This is a thing the bothers me here. It states in the warranty information that any damaged CAUSED BY DISASSEMBLY IS NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY. It doesn't state anywhere that disassembly for maintenance voids the warranty. Let's say I notice a grinding sound coming from a knife and the action isn't smooth. I take it apart and discover that there is a bit of metal on the liner in the pivot area that wasn't removed, and it caused the washer to be deformed. Would they refuse to fix a defect in the knife that had absolutely NOTHING to do with who took it apart? I would sincerely hope not! Warranty repairs should always be handled with a degree of understanding, and I am sure that a respectable company such as spyderco does that.

I'm not sure why this thread is now about cat videos...excuse me...I mean warranty.

I've only had pleasant experiences with Spyderco's warranty: most recently I let them know up front that I had taken apart a knife and lost a washer and wanted a replacement washer. They chided me for taking apart the knife, let me know that since the knife was made in Japan they didn't have the exact washers, and sent me the closest match they could find free of cost to me.

Rather than debate whether or not Spyderco will help out in whatever knife debacle you are imagining, I would prefer that we could go back to debating whether or not people like the new Military pivot.

 

[Gmrpnk21]

I'm not sure why this thread is now about cat videos...excuse me...I mean warranty.

I've only had pleasant experiences with Spyderco's warranty: most recently I let them know up front that I had taken Knife lost a washer and wanted a replacement washer. They chided me for taking apart the knife, let me know that since the knife was made in Japan they didn't have the exact washers, and sent me the closest match they could find free of cost to me.

Rather than debate whether or not Spyderco will help out in whatever knife debacle you are imagining, I would prefer that we could go back to debating whether or not people like the new Military pivot.

Any time someone discovers a problem with their knife, it becomes a discussion about warranty lol. I was simply stating that even though you took the knife apart, you didn't cause the issue and spyderco would probably fix it for you. I recently called spyderco requesting pocket clips screws and a couple days later they were in my hand. That's pretty good service imo. I personally like a pivot I can adjust to my liking Btw.

 

[JNewell]

Yeah, I never thought I'd be one of "those people" (e.g. air cooled Porsche people) that complain when some feature is done away with. Oh well.

The only solution I can think of is finding washers that are slightly larger to put on the knife so that I can over-tighten the pivot to my desired tension.

In fairness, most PM2s and M2s can be adjusted - but it just doesn't add anything and a small minority of knives have over-sized pivots, which is a problem... :thumbdn:

 

[JNewell]

This is a thing the bothers me here. It states in the warranty information that any damaged CAUSED BY DISASSEMBLY IS NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY. It doesn't state anywhere that disassembly for maintenance voids the warranty. Let's say I notice a grinding sound coming from a knife and the action isn't smooth. I take it apart and discover that there is a bit of metal on the liner in the pivot area that wasn't removed, and it caused the washer to be deformed. Would they refuse to fix a defect in the knife that had absolutely NOTHING to do with who took it apart? I would sincerely hope not! Warranty repairs should always be handled with a degree of understanding, and I am sure that a respectable company such as spyderco does that.

C'mon. What this means is that Spyderco is, reasonably, reserving the right to make the call themselves. Not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time, but I trust this company - and nearly every other knife company - to do the right thing. I've been buying "good" knives since 1971 or 1972 and have yet to have a bad experience with any of them.

 

[Gmrpnk21]

C'mon. What this means is that Spyderco is, reasonably, reserving the right to make the call themselves. Not everyone is going to be happy 100% of the time, but I trust this company - and nearly every other knife company - to do the right thing. I've been buying "good" knives since 1971 or 1972 and have yet to have a bad experience with any of them.

Lol, you might want to read my post after that one. You said what I was trying to get across! If they find out the problem was their fault, they will probably fix it even though you took it apart to find the issue

 

[RevDevil]

IMO a pinched washer is something that will more than likely be noticed immediately upon first inspection. I don't know of many people that aren't collectors, enthusiasts, aficionados, or hoarders that spend upwards of $30 on a folder. They simply don't know and cannot comprehend the difference between S90V and the metal that composes their breakfast skillet. To them, it's one in the same (metal= steel, titanium, pans, knives, wheels, etc).
Maintenance on a folder can easily be done without disassembly. It's a false perception held by many that you need to tear down a knife to clean and oil it. Got blood inyour pivot from skinning an animal or disecting a steak? Use Hydrogen Peroxide followed by a thorough soap and water washing. Got water on a tool steel knives pivot? Ue WD40, compressed air to blow out the rest of the crud, and reoil as necessary. Some folks are allergic to hand tools as well. A torx screw is not the same thing as a hex screw. No all torx or hex bits are created equally either.

 

[Gmrpnk21]

IMO a pinched washer is something that will more than likely be noticed immediately upon first inspection. I don't know of many people that aren't collectors, enthusiasts, aficionados, or hoarders that spend upwards of $30 on a folder. They simply don't know and cannot comprehend the difference between S90V and the metal that composes their breakfast skillet. To them, it's one in the same (metal= steel, titanium, pans, knives, wheels, etc).
Maintenance on a folder can easily be done without disassembly. It's a false perception held by many that you need to tear down a knife to clean and oil it. Got blood inyour pivot from skinning an animal or disecting a steak? Use Hydrogen Peroxide followed by a thorough soap and water washing. Got water on a tool steel knives pivot? WD40, compressed air to blow out the rest of the crud, and reoil as necessary. Some folks are allergic to hand tools as well. A torx screw is not the same thing as a hex screw. No all torx or hex bits are created equally either.

Unfortunately I have received a knife that was well over $100 that had the problem I described earlier. No company is perfect, and mistakes are understandable. I build class three government hardware every day, and taking apart and reassembling a knife may be annoying at times (I mean you speedsafe) but not terribly difficult. That being said, I understand not everyone is good at taking apart and reassembling their knives, but for those of us who are more than capable, we enjoying giving our friends a full on spa treatment. A simple rinse and blow doesn't get oxidation off bronze washer on a knife we received in a trade. Nor does it let you adjust the stop pin when one side is a bit worn and allows blade play. Or pick bits of crud from a bearing system that really got jammed in there. I break something, I will be happy to buy a replacement part Anyone that isn't comfortable with working on their own stuff typically doesn't do it.

 

[RevDevil]

I have no doubt in my mind of your experience with a pinched washer. I too received a knife purchased new (not Spyderco) that I paid several hundred dollars for, only to find the blade was ground incorrectly and the inability get the knife centered, regardless of tool or technique. I also agree with your assessment that no company "bats 1000" all the time. But given the price point of most knives in the Spyderco lineup (broader sales audience than say Chris Reeve), it makes sense that they don't want folks to disassemble. They know people do it (albeit at their own risk), and in most cases there is no resounding issues.

 

[Gmrpnk21]

I have no doubt in my mind of your experience with a pinched washer. I too received a Knife purchased new (not Spyderco) that I paid several hundred dollars for, only to find the blade was ground incorrectly and the inability get the knife centered, regardless of tool or technique. I also agree with your assessment that no company "bats 1000" all the time. But given the price point of most knives in the Spyderco lineup (broader sales audience than say Chris Reeve), it makes sense that they don't want folks to disassemble. They know people do it (albeit at their own risk), and in most cases there is no resounding issues.

I am inclined to agree with you there my friend,and I understand what you mean. However, I still believe that as long as you didn't damage or modify your knife, the right thing for a company to do is fix any issues that are within the warranty, and I understand that Spyderco will do this. Good customer service is what keeps people buying your brand

 

[nccole]

Can you give more info on the stepped pivot? I have never heard of it. I see it has no washers, but what else is different, and why is it called a "stepped" pivot? Also is the regular Mili's washers recessed in the knife? That seems uncommon also.

 

[Cynic2701]

Can you give more info on the stepped pivot? I have never heard of it. I see it has no washers, but what else is different, and why is it called a "stepped" pivot? Also is the regular Mili's washers recessed in the knife? That seems uncommon also.

It does have washers, they are just out of the frame. I probably should have laid everything out. The washers are not recessed in the liners of the knife.

The stepped pivot is like a female screw that has no head--in other words, the threads inside are open on both ends. The two male screws go on either side of the pivot and through the liners of the Military, and the washers go in between the blade and the liners. The stepped pivot has a raised portion in the middle that should be exactly the same size (or more likely very slightly larger) as the hole in the blade. Therefore, when the knife is screwed together that raised portion prevents pressure from screws from being transferred to the washers and instead it is transferred to the raised portion of the pivot--it is squeezed instead of the washers.

This is why once the screws are tightened down the pivot tension (which is really the force that squeezes the washers against the blade) doesn't change as it is not transferred to the blade and washers, but rather that raised portion of the pivot or the "stepped portion." As a result, the pivot tension can't be made any "tighter" than what is allowed by the dimensions of the stepped pivot. This is also why tolerances (i.e. the allowable amount of variance between parts) are very important in this type of design. CRK uses a different system whereby the "raised portion" of the stepped pivot isn't attached to the pivot screw structure; it is a free floating bushing in between the pivot screw and the blade. Essentially, the CRK bushing is free floating whereas the Spyderco stepped pivot is not and therefore should not properly be called a bushing.

 

[FearAgent]

Yeah I discovered this after I got mine and intended to put the S90v blade into Fluted Ti Military. A big disappointment. I hope the upcoming Cru-Wear run has the old style pivot

 

[goodeyesniper]

IMO a pinched washer is something that will more than likely be noticed immediately upon first inspection. I don't know of many people that aren't collectors, enthusiasts, aficionados, or hoarders that spend upwards of $30 on a folder. They simply don't know and cannot comprehend the difference between S90V and the metal that composes their breakfast skillet. To them, it's one in the same (metal= steel, titanium, pans, knives, wheels, etc).
Maintenance on a folder can easily be done without disassembly. It's a false perception held by many that you need to tear down a knife to clean and oil it. Got blood inyour pivot from skinning an animal or disecting a steak? Use Hydrogen Peroxide followed by a thorough soap and water washing. Got water on a tool steel knives pivot? Ue WD40, compressed air to blow out the rest of the crud, and reoil as necessary. Some folks are allergic to hand tools as well. A torx screw is not the same thing as a hex screw. No all torx or hex bits are created equally either.

this x1000

I take apart, build, fix, tune and tinker on bicycles for a living. I fully disassemble seven thousand dollar bikes to get them running as best as possible.

I have NEVER taken apart my spyderco, and I'm obviously quite capable of doing so. it simply accomplishes nothing.

hell, my main Edc has been a non stainless military in cpm m4. this thing comes into contact with caustic chemicals, I have had it clipped in my pocket while riding my bike through torrential downpours, I have used it hard and put it away wet.

I have always been able to just rinse it out under the faucet, dry it off, and be done with it. still opens like the day I got it.

you don't need to take one apart. period. if you choose to do so to fulfill your ocd knife needs, then I guess you have to risk it.

plus, spyderco is a reasonable company. they have to keep their warranty voiding statements up to dissuade the kind of people who will damage it and try to get it warrantied. but that doesn't mean it's set in stone for reasonable purposes.

 

[JNewell]

Yes. It works fine as long as it isn't too thick (oversize). But as long as it isn't too thick, I don't see any practical advantage compared to a traditional pivot. If it is oversized, you'll have lateral blade play that isn't easily corrected. Although oversized step pivots seem to be extremely rare, the bottom line is that I see no upside and some downside on this change.

It does have washers, they are just out of the frame. I probably should have laid everything out. The washers are not recessed in the liners of the knife.

The stepped pivot is like a female screw that has no head--in other words, the threads inside are open on both ends. The two male screws go on either side of the pivot and through the liners of the Military, and the washers go in between the blade and the liners. The stepped pivot has a raised portion in the middle that should be exactly the same size (or more likely very slightly larger) as the hole in the blade. Therefore, when the knife is screwed together that raised portion prevents pressure from screws from being transferred to the washers and instead it is transferred to the raised portion of the pivot--it is squeezed instead of the washers.

This is why once the screws are tightened down the pivot tension (which is really the force that squeezes the washers against the blade) doesn't change as it is not transferred to the blade and washers, but rather that raised portion of the pivot or the "stepped portion." As a result, the pivot tension can't be made any "tighter" than what is allowed by the dimensions of the stepped pivot. This is also why tolerances (i.e. the allowable amount of variance between parts) are very important in this type of design. CRK uses a different system whereby the "raised portion" of the stepped pivot isn't attached to the pivot screw structure; it is a free floating bushing in between the pivot screw and the blade. Essentially, the CRK bushing is free floating whereas the Spyderco stepped pivot is not and therefore should not properly be called a bushing.

 

[Doughnut]

It looks like the detent has drastically changed position. The detent ball used to be on the corner of the end of the lock bar. Where is the detent ball on that Blue Military?

 

[Cynic2701]

It looks like the detent has drastically changed position. The detent ball used to be on the corner of the end of the lock bar. Where is the detent ball on that Blue Military?

It's in the same place; it hasn't moved. The detent hole in the blade no longer goes all the way through. I'm not sure what the small hole on the S90V blade that does go all the way through is for. Perhaps a manufacturing artifact.

 

[hunterseeker5]

Maintenance on a folder can easily be done without disassembly. It's a false perception held by many that you need to tear down a knife to clean and oil it. Got blood inyour pivot from skinning an animal or disecting a steak? Use Hydrogen Peroxide followed by a thorough soap and water washing. Got water on a tool steel knives pivot? Ue WD40, compressed air to blow out the rest of the crud, and reoil as necessary. Some folks are allergic to hand tools as well. A torx screw is not the same thing as a hex screw. No all torx or hex bits are created equally either.

Some of it yes, but a spyderco is significantly tighter tolerances than, say, a few common firearms out there. Nobody is suggesting you maintain them without any disassembly, because you can "technically" use a combination of solvents, compressed air, and time/effort to clean it that way. It just doesn't make any sense. You can also draw analogies with cars, bicycles, tools..... really just about anything actually.

Spyderco's warranty isn't ambiguous. In legalese, its pretty clear what they cover and what they don't.

Here is something people seem to be skipping over though: unlike some brands, Busse for example, Spyderco doesn't want to be in the business of selling insurance, they want to be in the business of selling knives. They therefore QC things carefully before they go out the door, warranty the slip ups which may somehow get through, but other than that they really just want to sell you a knife that you can use however you like. If you cock it up, they may fix it, but I get the impression they'd just rather not be in the business of fixing knives. Thats not bad, or sinister, or anything else like that, its just a different business model. Meanwhile Busse, my favorite example, likes to sell knives+insurance so built into the price is some cost for unintentional damage. If you wear your Busse out, it'll be replaced. Spydercos however were designed with a finite life expectancy, and the warranty elucidates that.

I just don't understand why people make such a big deal of it. Buy a knife, use it, love it, don't worry about it. Not everything in life comes with an insurance policy stating, no matter how stupidly you do something, someone else will be on the hook to pay for it instead of you.



As for the bushing pivot system, I'm amazed at the negative reaction to it. I think this is a huge upgrade, both from a functionality standpoint and from a production one. To me, this makes the knife significantly more desirable. If you find you want more resistance in the pivot, put a dab of high viscosity silicone in there and you'll get this beautiful smooth hydraulic feeling to the pivot. Alternately, you can always just get some shim stock and stick it under one of the washers if you're desperate for excessive tightness. I guess this means I should sell off my old barely touched millie as a "classic" to those fans who like the older style, because I found the old style pivot sufficiently objectionable as to never carry it because I preferred my para2.

 

[Doughnut]

It's in the same place; it hasn't moved. The detent hole in the blade no longer goes all the way through. I'm not sure what the small hole on the S90V blade that does go all the way through is for. Perhaps a manufacturing artifact.

Alright, thanks. It looks like the small hole is on the S30V blade in the pictures.

 

[Cynic2701]

Alright, thanks. It looks like the small hole is on the S30V blade in the pictures.

The S30V blade, which is on the right, has a detent hole which goes through the blade. The detent hole on the blue S90V Military does not go through the blade, and therefore you cannot see it in the picture as it is on the other side.

The hole on the S90V blade that is near the date stamp is smaller in diameter than the detent holes on both knives. Since it doesn't have a clear purpose (i.e. as a detent hole) and it would seem foolish to drill holes in hard blade steels unnecessarily, my assumption is that it is related to the manufacturing process.

As for the bushing pivot system, I'm amazed at the negative reaction to it. I think this is a huge upgrade, both from a functionality standpoint and from a production one. To me, this makes the knife significantly more desirable. If you find you want more resistance in the pivot, put a dab of high viscosity silicone in there and you'll get this beautiful smooth hydraulic feeling to the pivot. Alternately, you can always just get some shim stock and stick it under one of the washers if you're desperate for excessive tightness. I guess this means I should sell off my old barely touched millie as a "classic" to those fans who like the older style, because I found the old style pivot sufficiently objectionable as to never carry it because I preferred my para2.

Thank you for your input and suggestions. What sort of shim stock would you suggest?

 

[hunterseeker5]

Thank you for your input and suggestions. What sort of shim stock would you suggest?

Depends, but bronze should be easy enough to get your hands on. I might personally go for PTFE, if you can get it thin enough, just because its so soft dare I say you couldn't possibly screw anything up. Then again every time I think up something idiot-proof, god creates a smarter idiot so.......

You'll have two options with the shim stock: stack it under the existing washer, or fabricate your own complete washer out of it. It might be easier to find and fabricate shim stock for the latter.