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Stepped pivot on the Military

Alternately, you can always just get some shim stock and stick it under one of the washers if you're desperate for excessive tightness. I guess this means I should sell off my old barely touched millie as a "classic" to those fans who like the older style, because I found the old style pivot sufficiently objectionable as to never carry it because I preferred my para2. :P

I actually did that - once. It was a PITA. And honestly I don't want to be paying through the nose for PB shim stock and then going through the trouble to cut and fit it when I could have taken care of the problem with +/- 1.0 second of effort with a Torx driver. :( I'm not trying to pick a fight or be disagreeable, I just don't see any upside on this engineering change. Call me a curmudgeon. :o
 
The S30V blade, which is on the right, has a detent hole which goes through the blade. The detent hole on the blue S90V Military does not go through the blade, and therefore you cannot see it in the picture as it is on the other side.

The hole on the S90V blade that is near the date stamp is smaller in diameter than the detent holes on both knives. Since it doesn't have a clear purpose (i.e. as a detent hole) and it would seem foolish to drill holes in hard blade steels unnecessarily, my assumption is that it is related to the manufacturing process.



Thank you for your input and suggestions. What sort of shim stock would you suggest?

I'm guessing that the holes on the blades in different locations would serve to identify the diffent steels when the blanks are unfinished sitting in piles. Hard to tell the difference without some sort of marking. Another manufacturer also uses a variety of small holes to differentiate the steels from one another. I'm going to pull the trigger and order one of these.
 
I actually did that - once. It was a PITA. And honestly I don't want to be paying through the nose for PB shim stock and then going through the trouble to cut and fit it when I could have taken care of the problem with +/- 1.0 second of effort with a Torx driver. :( I'm not trying to pick a fight or be disagreeable, I just don't see any upside on this engineering change. Call me a curmudgeon. :o

No, its a fair debate. Its just two different perspectives. On the one hand you have the traditional pivot, which depends on washers and screw tension to center the blade against the force of the locking spring. The advantages of this are you can adjust the pivot at will. The disadvantages are that the threads tend to back out, because they're not under sufficient load to stay, so you have to threadlock them. You also have to either have more blade resistance, or put up with more blade play.

On the other hand with the bushing pivot design, smoothness and low resistance opening (two broadly accepted as desirable features, since a knife coming without them particularly at this price point will be lambasted for cheap manufacturing) are essentially built in. There will be some inherent blade play, as there is with all folding knives, but it can be kept at a consistent low level. Unfortunately dialing in increased tension can't be done by adjusting the pivot.


With the latter, if all else fails, I'd recommend some extremely high viscosity lubricant. You'll never dial all the play out of a folding knife, but the bushing pivot system allows unparalleled smoothness and low resistance opening combined with relatively low cost manufacturing. (as compared to a bearing pivot) *shrug* We'll never really settle this. I just never thought I'd see the day when a smooth blade action was seen as a negative in a knife. Seriously though, I know I recommended it before, but if you put a high viscosity lubricant in there it'll add some resistance and it'll make the action feel positively hydraulic.
 
No, its a fair debate. Its just two different perspectives. On the one hand you have the traditional pivot, which depends on washers and screw tension to center the blade against the force of the locking spring. The advantages of this are you can adjust the pivot at will. The disadvantages are that the threads tend to back out, because they're not under sufficient load to stay, so you have to threadlock them. You also have to either have more blade resistance, or put up with more blade play.

On the other hand with the bushing pivot design, smoothness and low resistance opening (two broadly accepted as desirable features, since a knife coming without them particularly at this price point will be lambasted for cheap manufacturing) are essentially built in. There will be some inherent blade play, as there is with all folding knives, but it can be kept at a consistent low level. Unfortunately dialing in increased tension can't be done by adjusting the pivot.


With the latter, if all else fails, I'd recommend some extremely high viscosity lubricant. You'll never dial all the play out of a folding knife, but the bushing pivot system allows unparalleled smoothness and low resistance opening combined with relatively low cost manufacturing. (as compared to a bearing pivot) *shrug* We'll never really settle this. I just never thought I'd see the day when a smooth blade action was seen as a negative in a knife. Seriously though, I know I recommended it before, but if you put a high viscosity lubricant in there it'll add some resistance and it'll make the action feel positively hydraulic.

Definitely agree on #1. :thumbup: I have a lifetime supply of half-empty tubes of #242. ;)

WRT #2, I would have guessed the goal of the stepped pivot/pivot "bushing" was to eliminate adjustment issues, but I'm not sure Sal has ever said that. He has been explicit that Spyderco does not intend to try to match CRK manufacturing tolerances at Spyderco price points (which is unassailably reasonable). So, I'm left wondering what the point of the stepped pivot is. :)

On #3, I don't think my stepped pivot knives are any smoother, and I don't think they should be. The relationship between the blade and its concentric bearing on the pivot hasn't changed at all, as far as I know.

Lube's a whole different question - some designs seem better suited for it than others...sort of reminds me of some of the ills that can be cured with wheel bearing grease, but again that's a different question. :eek: :(
 
So the reason for the smoothness, perceived or otherwise, is that no force from the scalse/frame is required for alignment of the blade. The blade's alignment is determined by the bushing in the center of the blade tang. The blade rides on this primarily, rather than the washers. This is why, on a knife of this design, if you disengage the lock the blade simply falls free; you have a system where tight tolerances allow a very low-play low-friction design. If I were to see comparable low friction opening from a more traditional design, the blade play would be simply enormous.

No, technically you don't need the bushing design (threaded from both ends) to get this effect. You can use an enlarged pivot screw (size allows looser tolerances, as the larger diameters allow absolute diameter differences to be a smaller %) which is just very closely fitted in size to the blade tang hole. Other knives have done this. For a variety of production reasons I'm guessing, there is practicality to threading a bushing at both ends.

If you like your knife high friction, and view it from a purely end user standpoint (meaning ignoring production practicalities), then the bushing pivot may make no sense to you. If you like your knife easier to open (which you've noticed this is too fast and light for your tastes) then it has its obvious advantages. I'm guessing it has production advantages as well.

Or let me flip the whole argument and put it all in another perspective for you:
Why are the Manix2 and Para2 (particularly the para2) so damn popular? You could argue egros, lock, steel, grind, size, etc, but the bottom line is one thing people seem to just love about them is the action. One hand flick the knife open or closed just by pulling back on the lock. Yeah okay, the military you can't do that with the lock through part of the blade's travel, but it doesn't discredit the feature. From spyderco's perspective then, perhaps adding the bushing pivot system could increase the knife's appeal. ;) Yeah there will always be the porshe curmudgeons, but I'm guessing this will be a popular change overall. I could be wrong.
 
I've replied to you in the bolded portions below:

So the reason for the smoothness, perceived or otherwise, is that no force from the scalse/frame is required for alignment of the blade. The blade's alignment is determined by the bushing in the center of the blade tang. The blade rides on this primarily, rather than the washers. This is why, on a knife of this design, if you disengage the lock the blade simply falls free; you have a system where tight tolerances allow a very low-play low-friction design. If I were to see comparable low friction opening from a more traditional design, the blade play would be simply enormous.

No, technically you don't need the bushing design (threaded from both ends) to get this effect. You can use an enlarged pivot screw (size allows looser tolerances, as the larger diameters allow absolute diameter differences to be a smaller %) which is just very closely fitted in size to the blade tang hole. Other knives have done this. For a variety of production reasons I'm guessing, there is practicality to threading a bushing at both ends.

Not quite true. Smoothness is the result of a lack of change in resistance to force either opening or closing the knife. All of my "excessively tightened" knives are very smooth--they simply have much more resistance to opening than otherwise.

On a knife without a bushing/stepped pivot design, and which uses the more traditional pivot design you can still get the knife to fall freely by disengaging the lock. An Axis lock is a good example. Yes, some fiddling is required, but you can loctite it once it is dialed in and still have no blade play. I have a Spyderco Dragonfly that will swing freely if I hold the lockback open, and which still has no appreciable blade play.

Practicality-wise, it means that during assembly less orientation would be required of parts. Since the stepped pivot is reversible, it wouldn't matter which way it is put in. I'm not sure, but it is also possible that the same stepped pivot used on the Para2 is used for the new Military. It may be difficult to tell from the picture, but the screws seemed cut (rather badly, I will note) from a larger screw as the non-head ends had jagged cuts on them and both screws are of different lengths due to this. I would be very surprised if this was intentional.


If you like your knife high friction, and view it from a purely end user standpoint (meaning ignoring production practicalities), then the bushing pivot may make no sense to you. If you like your knife easier to open (which you've noticed this is too fast and light for your tastes) then it has its obvious advantages. I'm guessing it has production advantages as well.

Or let me flip the whole argument and put it all in another perspective for you:
Why are the Manix2 and Para2 (particularly the para2) so damn popular? You could argue egros, lock, steel, grind, size, etc, but the bottom line is one thing people seem to just love about them is the action. One hand flick the knife open or closed just by pulling back on the lock. Yeah okay, the military you can't do that with the lock through part of the blade's travel, but it doesn't discredit the feature. From spyderco's perspective then, perhaps adding the bushing pivot system could increase the knife's appeal. ;) Yeah there will always be the porshe curmudgeons, but I'm guessing this will be a popular change overall. I could be wrong.

They are popular because they offer great value, are made in the U.S.A., are offered in a variety of steels if you can catch a sprint run, and there is quite a bit of coverage of them on Youtube/other review sights. The Axis-lock offers similar action, so I'm not sure that that is a good argument. Besides, Cold Steel Triad Locks appear to be quite popular, and those have a reputation for being very stiff and hard to open.

I'll be honest. I'm in the minority on this one. This makes sense from a production standpoint, a marketing standpoint (whee! look how fast our knives flick out!), and a unification of product line standpoint. As you rightfully point out, the Military will join the Manix 2 and Para 2 as knives that have a stepped pivot. I'm not sure, but I think that the Native 5 may also have one as well.

I guess I'll just resign myself to being one of "those guys" that manage to complain about everything ;)
 
I'm guessing that the holes on the blades in different locations would serve to identify the diffent steels when the blanks are unfinished sitting in piles. Hard to tell the difference without some sort of marking. Another manufacturer also uses a variety of small holes to differentiate the steels from one another. I'm going to pull the trigger and order one of these.

That seems to be a good guess to me. All complaining aside, it is actually a great knife. I love the blue color of the G-10 and the fact that Spyderco literally goes out of their way to offer us high wear resistant steels like S90V. I'm sure you'll love the knife.

Actually...just one more complaint...I wish it were a lefty!
 
Or let me flip the whole argument and put it all in another perspective for you:
Why are the Manix2 and Para2 (particularly the para2) so damn popular? You could argue egros, lock, steel, grind, size, etc, but the bottom line is one thing people seem to just love about them is the action. One hand flick the knife open or closed just by pulling back on the lock. Yeah okay, the military you can't do that with the lock through part of the blade's travel, but it doesn't discredit the feature. From spyderco's perspective then, perhaps adding the bushing pivot system could increase the knife's appeal. ;) Yeah there will always be the porshe curmudgeons, but I'm guessing this will be a popular change overall. I could be wrong.

As a supplement to the more detailed answer from Cynic, judging from the forum traffic here and at Spyderco Forums, I'd say they're popular in spite of the stepped pivot, rather than because of it. :) I say that because there seem to be a lot of posts from people who aren't happy with the blade's action as it comes out of the box and can't get it adjusted right. Most of those can be solved by knowing the proper technique, especially with the PM2, but a small minority of cases leave people frustrated.

Cynic's almost certainly right about the critics being a minority. :)
 
Does this change apply to other versions of the Military? Like the plain black g10? And if so what date code (approximate) does the change occur?
 
My cruwear military has the older standard pivot. I can't speak to any others but that was a very recent run.
 
I'm still a little confused on what a stepped pivot is. Are you referring to that little tube thing that the S90V has in the pic?

I too have a Cruwear, and I can tighten it down pretty good if that corroborates that theory.
 
Yeah I saw the pic, but how does it prevent tightening of the pivot? Is tightening limited to a point, or just impossible altogether because the knife comes with the screw fully tightened? Is that the purpose, or an inherent "flaw" of the design? Sorry, still learning and afraid to take my own knife apart.

I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how to relate this in a post without a drawing of some sort. The stepped pivot is machined to a tight tolerance that sandwiches the blade and washers between the liners and tightness is limited by those tolerances as opposed to a straight pivot pin that allows no predetermined machined tolerance dictating tightness.
 
I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how to relate this in a post without a drawing of some sort. The stepped pivot is machined to a tight tolerance that sandwiches the blade and washers between the liners and tightness is limited by those tolerances as opposed to a straight pivot pin that allows no predetermined machined tolerance dictating tightness.

Right, I understand now. I wasn't sure what made it "stepped", but now I get that it's that tube that I thought it was. I'm still curious though, does the pivot come torqued down completely so there is absolutely no possible adjustment, or is it simply limited to the point that the liners are snug and the screw has bottomed out whether or not it's enough squeeze for the desired effect?

Basically what I'm trying to figure out is what is the justification for this type of pivot. Tighter tolerances or zero tolerances.
 
Right, I understand now. I wasn't sure what made it "stepped", but now I get that it's that tube that I thought it was. I'm still curious though, does the pivot come torqued down completely so there is absolutely no possible adjustment, or is it simply limited to the point that the liners are snug and the screw has bottomed out whether or not it's enough squeeze for the desired effect?

Basically what I'm trying to figure out is what is the justification for this type of pivot. Tighter tolerances or zero tolerances.

I've found the tolerances on these are a little off at times and some are tight some aren't. Some adjustments may be necessary new and after break in some more adjustment. And by break in I mean use. Much more effective than flicking open and closed 1000 times.
 
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