Stiffed on a Custom

G L Drew said:
Yes, the economy has been tough the last couple of years and losing a job or getting cut back on hours is completely understandable but a buyer that just changes his mind or blows his knife allowance on something else just doesn't know good ethics. (I promised myself that I would not rant; sorry)
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No need to apologize. I'd be pretty irritated too. If the buyer had some character he'd have honored his commitment and resold or traded the knife for the next one instead of leaving you high and dry. I don't know who it is but I think I have an idea, and I hope he reads this thread.

tryppyr said:
Always! At my core, I'm a cheapskate :)
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Next time someone stiffs me on a $495 knife, you get first chance at it. Bidding starts at $494.99 :D :D
 
psycho78 said:
I make the knives that I want to make in small batches. I have control over everything. I don't take orders.
Just seems like less headache doing it this way. Make a bunch of what you want, and let it be up for grabs.
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This is the path that I chose to take beginning the first of the year, no more custom work. And, it is a lot more fun to make them the way I want not following a pattern made by someone else.
 
I would anticipate paying a down payment for a real custom. But I will no longer make down payments for "semi custom" work, i.e., when a maker produces several dozen identical knives for a bunch of folks here at BF. I bought from one maker, who makes good stuff and seems to be a good guy, who dragged things out over 3 calendar years and was unresponsive or barely responsive to repeated email inquiries.

So it cuts both ways - custom makers who get stiffed like you did, and buyers like us who grow old and feeble waiting literally years for semi-custom work (and which far missed the maker's promised deadline).

So like I say, I would expect to give you a downpayment for custom work, but not for the scenario I described. And rarely if ever for any "pre-orders" of regular production knives (Spyderco, etc.). JMO.

:thumbup:
 
It's a shame that people make it hard for everyone else. To me it is pretty simple. If you don't have the money to pay the minute you commit, don't commit. Personally I don't like the method of posting them up and the free for all beginning.

Case in point, I have been trying to buy a knife from a certain maker for while now. Seems like when I check back I get to see a thread with high 5's and knives all gone. It's frustrating and disappointing. Some folks can't be online all day.

I have read enough on this site for enough years to know that the makers that I would be interested in buying from are reputable and not going to put the screw to me so for that reason I don't mind paying up front to know that I have secured the knife I want. Just my 2 cents.
 
i personally when ordering a knife give a deposit, to prove that i'm serious about the knife, usually in the tune of 200 dollars deposit. That way if for some unbelieveable reason i should have to back out, it'll atleast cover the cost of the makers time hopefully.
 
ive said it before and ill say it again. makers tend to have a stigma about asking for a deposit. its ridiculous. if i wanted a knife from someone, id be pleased to make a deposit for it and would never hold it against someone. and when the time comes to pay the rest, the sum would be lesser and ore absorbable due to the deposit. its a failsafe way to be payed.
 
I'LL TAKE IT! .....pm sent.

...hold yer breath... it's coming..... wait for it... wait for it.....


That sucks, brother. Ed is right about how the current economy has made business transactions unstable. You have to look at it from both sides, though. Folks are struggling these days and the ones that feel safe at the moment can have the bottom drop out at anytime. You have to find a way to deal with it so it has less impact on what you do and how you carry yourself. If your customers are unstable, there is not much you can do. You may lose potential business by demanding non-refundable down payments. I had to change the way I thought rather than the way I did business...

Aside from those strict specific custom orders (which I rarely take, anymore) I don't ask for any money upfront and I don't give delivery dates. I make the piece to sell regardless of whether the initial request is followed through or not. If I call the customer and they indeed purchase the piece, that is a bonus. In fact, I have on occasion, been rather happy that it didn't go through as planned because it allowed me to present the piece to a dealer or post it on the various forums. Few people ever see my blades when a deal goes smoothly. I drum up quite a bit of sales from unexpected "drop-outs".

When it comes to the sale threads... you have to approach that differently. Until I get that PM from the member I post "Still Available pending PM." The way I see it if the member posts in the sale thread, they can sure as hell post a PM or send an email within a reasonable amount of time. If I do get a PM and they agree to take it, I will post "Payment Pending" or "Sold Pending Funds". It isn't until I receive payment that I post "SOLD". I don't like it when someone posts "I'll take it." or "PM sent." and then sends a message that they need to allocate funds.... grrrrrrrr.... Allocate BEFORE chiming in on my thread. Those kind of posts throw off potential buyers who are ready NOW.

In a nutshell, protect yourself from potential disappointment by approaching every transaction with a broad view of reality....

- the economy can change.
- the customer's personal situation can change.
- your personal situation can change.
- you have little control.
- the customer has little control.
- people are for the most part, honest (or want to be).

Whether the deal went South for genuine or less-than-admirable circumstances, if you are able to disconnect and reallocate your efforts without emotional strain... you will be better for it. I have had "lost" customers come back several months later, telling me that they are in a better position, now (financially) and didn't forget how understanding I was when they canceled their original order... that's good business, to me.
 
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peter r said:
ive said it before and ill say it again. makers tend to have a stigma about asking for a deposit. its ridiculous. if i wanted a knife from someone, id be pleased to make a deposit for it and would never hold it against someone. and when the time comes to pay the rest, the sum would be lesser and ore absorbable due to the deposit. its a failsafe way to be payed.
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I don't know, Peter... I have heard of more horror stories about folks who get themselves into serious trouble by taking downpayments than by those who get stiffed every now and then. Anything can happen... shop accidents, family/health issues. You don't need to be sitting there with other peoples money and a long list of committed delivery dates. I avoid that and "trades" by any means necessary.

Besides, unless I'm buying from a production/semi-production maker, I'm not even sure what I'm going to get. I would want to see the final product first. I have no problem paying for materials that go outside of what the maker has in stock but then you are getting into specialized customs.

Rick
 
I as a buyer would NEVER give a deposit on an order. My word is my bond!
I just ordered 4 custom knives from one maker( not the first time with this guy) and he has never asked me for any deposit.

I have another maker that is going to give me a week of his time and build me 5-7 knives in the next 90 days.. This guy has a 4 year backlog.. He is going to check back with me before he starts just to double check which knives I want him to build..then he is going to build them, I am going to pay him.. done.. this maker has sent me knives with a note " If you like them keep them and pay me whenever you can" Of course NONE have ever gone back, and I pay him right away..

I ordered a knife from a well known maker once.. 300.00 knife. He calls me after a month and says" your knife is almost done, send me the money and it will be done by the time I receive the check" Well.. 4 weeks later my knife showed up..he will not be getting anymore of my business!! In fact, it kinda sickens me to carry his knife.. Cause I will never forget what he did to me.

He got busy, moving his shop and stuff came up.. I SAY BULL----

I recently had a knife that I sold to 3 different " I will take its" on this forum.. one even had the balls to edit his post 2 days later, after backing out, like it never happened..

To me, it is even worse being a maker.. you guys are feeding your families, building relationships with your customers, and are not working on the highest margins when you factor in your labor.. I have the upmost respect for makers and their passion do something they love.

I dont know what the answer is.. I just feel bad that it has come to this!! I do think that BF members are TOO NICE and members should always DING the negative feedback button.

There is another forum that I frequent.. and when someone backs out or screws another member it is literally a "public hanging"

Sorry for the rant..
 
I was thinking about what Rick said about "trades" as well.

Most of my money from anything i happen to sell goes directly back into the hobby, so bartering for tools, materials etc. was a welcomed thing with me.

I had made a co-worker a beautiful holster for a 1911 styled pistol. He told me he was short on cash, but had an old letter and number stamp set in a big ol' wooden box that belonged to his dad. I agreed, gave him his holster, and told him to put the stamp set in my office.

I come to the office to find a $2 metal stamp set from harbor freight. Brand new. Red plastic case.

I know that alot of this stuff sucks, but I've learned that this is nothing but beneficial. I've learned so much from crooks.
 
Exactly, Pyscho...

I have traded for stuff with my personal time or gear but never do it through my business. A box of flashlights or a stamp set doesn't pay the bills or fit into the books very well.
 
I'll do it every once in awhile, only if i see whats being traded in person. I'm always buying crap like that anyway to support the hobby. I trusted this fellow and had no reason to believe he'd give me the shit end. As far as I'm concerned he still owes me about 50 bucks. I let it go as a lesson learned. Paid good for that schooling.

I still like trades, but I'm real careful.
 
1) IMO, folks who are living paycheck-to-paycheck or on the brink of financial stability to the point where a job loss would prevent them from honoring their commitments should not be purchasing expensive knives in the first place.

2) If I was a maker, anyone who refused to pay for a custom knife that I made in respense to their specific order would not go on my "pay first" list; they would go on my "do not accept orders from anymore" list.

3) I think it is perfectly reasonable to require, say, a 50% deposit on a custom knife, so long as the deposit is not required until the time that the maker is actually going to start making the knife. As a buyer/collector, I would have no problem with that at all.

4) On the other hand . . .

I have even been so trusting as to have paid a 100% deposit on a knife that a certain knife maker with the initials G.N. claimed would be completed in a few short weeks. You guessed it: many months later I still had not received the knife and every other week he came up with a new story, claiming that it was almost done, that it just needed "a final polish," etc., yadda, yadd, yadda for months (all while he continued to take new orders from others while also promising them turnaround times of a couple of weeks). You can read all about that sad tale here at BF by searching on my previous posts.

5) Mr. Drew's knives are damn good (I have one with me right now), so the person who doesn't pay for one of his knives that they ordered is really screwing himself too, IMO.
 
I only ask deposits for personalized knives, or those I consider too far out of my norm. I usually only make knives that I believe would sell to someone else, if the customer backs out. I just do not like taking deposits. It would make me feel owned. I cannot blame anyone who does, but each has to make their own way however they see best.
 
I am just beginning to (try to) make knives after years of metalworking. Just got back from the dentist, where the first thing on the receptionist's desk to catch my eye is, "Payment in full expected at time of service." (Almost $400 for my wife's and my routine six-month cleaning!!) Ditto notice on the front desk at my doc's shop. Try getting a pair of eyeglasses on the come, or a blacksmith to handforge a firescreen or a gate for you. Half in front is standard. Back half on delivery. I don't understand why this poses a moral problem to a knifemaker. Can someone explain? Is there some ancient code in the craft of a man's word being his bond, etc.? Maybe I am missing something here. Thanks.
 
I don't like taking deposits. I never make anything I don't want to make or with materials that I don't have or any knife that I couldn't sell in case my customer backs out. This way I don't really get bothered when someone changes their mind. It's also a good idea to ask the client just before you start if they still want it. If it took a couple of months from the time a knife was ordered to completion, there's a good chance the customer may have had a change of mind or financial situation. When a client backs out on me (it happens often) I just tell them that's okay, I'll go ahead and sell it on the forums.
 
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Deposits are ok, but being without the cash and seeing no product for months can be frustrating and lead to many checkup calls. In the nature of custom work there are inevitable delays that are often no communicated to the customer.

It is certainly more work, but for really long lead times (over 6 months) I prefer the payment be requested at the start of work rather than a deposit at the time of order.
 
tryppyr said:
investment was, say, $45 in materials and fuel, and maybe 25 hours of time.
- Greg
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$45? I can't even buy decent handle material for $45. What with steel around $3.50 to $4.50 a pound, S.S. bar, & N/S bar over $1.00 an inch, belts $5.00 to $8.00 (or more), sanding sheets about a $1.00 apiece. Solder, pins, epoxy . . . Whew! You can make a $500 knife for $45? I can't.
 
Miles Undercut said:
I am just beginning to (try to) make knives after years of metalworking. Just got back from the dentist, where the first thing on the receptionist's desk to catch my eye is, "Payment in full expected at time of service." (Almost $400 for my wife's and my routine six-month cleaning!!) Ditto notice on the front desk at my doc's shop. Try getting a pair of eyeglasses on the come, or a blacksmith to handforge a firescreen or a gate for you. Half in front is standard. Back half on delivery. I don't understand why this poses a moral problem to a knifemaker. Can someone explain? Is there some ancient code in the craft of a man's word being his bond, etc.? Maybe I am missing something here. Thanks.
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There is nothing moraly wrong with asking for money upfront... lot's of makers do it... I personally don't do it for several reasons...

- I make what I want, when I'm inspired to make it.
- I want the freedom of taking time off with my family without worrying about deadlines.
- I do not want the responsibility of holding someone elses money and adhering to a timeline.

there are more reasons...

The reason I went into business for myself was to break free from the "rat race" and try to live a simpler, stressfree life. I run my business like most artisans of old did... on honour, truth and respect. If I take precautions, I won't get burned.

If I were selling ready made, straight forward pieces, it might be different. Once I start a knife it doesn't leave the shop for a good 2-3 weeks. A lot can happen in that time.
 
I am actually in favor of a deposit as a buyer - say 25%. I think this shows the seller is serious as well, because if they do not have a realistic expectation of providing my item in a reasonable time frame - they should not accept my deposit. Once money has changed hands, I expect communication and an ETA.

I certainly understand the seller's not wanting to take money so as to remain more flexible on their work.
 
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