Stiffed on a Custom

I have always asked for 30% up front and this is why. If I ask for a good deposit it allows me to make exactly the knife that the customer is asking for, not a compromise of the knife he wants and the knife I think I can sell to someone else if he backs out. I don't even have to worry about it.

Also, it weeds out the guys that are just thinking about having a knife made or like to plan knives or talk about them. I like doing all that stuff but I don't have the time.

It's not fair to my serious customers for me to spend time on a knife that someone else ordered if that person wasn't going to pay for the thing. My serious customers deserve all of my attention (by attention, I mean working on their knives), they are paying for it.

A handmade knife is not necessarily a custom knife, customers expect to pay more for one made especially for him, and there is a reason for that. It takes a lot longer to make knives to someones specifications than it does to make knives with no special requirements. I could not expect someone who walks in off the street to pay the same for a knife I made especially for another person, to his specifications. It would not be fair to that person. I would probably have to take a hit on that knife. The deposit covers that.
 
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Mark... every point you make to validate taking money upfront are the exact reasons why I don't. I'm not trying to be a smartass... we just see things differently.

I stopped taking on most specific custom orders because I felt as if I was making someone else's knives... 10 emails later, we are knit-picking pin position or stitch count. I'm just not the type of maker who can work from someone else's specs. Some makers like that and se it as a challenge. I find it smothering. I feel that if I am allowed design freedom, that there is no compromise because I am making for the knife and the customer is getting the most sincere work I can do.

This may be the biggest reason why I'm posting in this thread...

I recently allowed a customer to pay upfront for the first time in a long time. He said that he probably wouldn't have the funds if he waited the 4-6 months I originally told him. I accepted the payment and told him I would do my best to fit his blade in early. That was over the Christmas holidays. Since then, he has phoned twice and emailed a half dozen times. His last email... "Me again. I am just checking in again on my knife. You said you would get a chance to work on it this week. Since I have already paid would I be out of line to ask for a delivery date?" ..... argghhhh. I just talked to my wife about it over dinner... now I'm headed back into the shop tonight to work on his blade. I just want to get it done. I won't take shortcuts... but I'm definately not inspired to go that extra length. It's sad because that is the best part for me .... I usually want to do MORE for the customer and the piece but like I said, I just want it out of my shop, now.

Rick
 
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Rick Marchand said:
Mark... every point you make to validate taking money upfront are the exact reasons why I don't. I'm not trying to be a smartass... we just see things differently.

I stopped taking on most specific custom orders because I felt as if I was making someone else's knives... 10 emails later, we are knit-picking pin position or stitch count. I'm just not the type of maker who can work from someone else's specs. Some makers like that and se it as a challenge. I find it smothering. I feel that if I am allowed design freedom, that there is no compromise because I am making for the knife and the customer is getting the most sincere work I can do.

This may be the biggest reason why I'm posting in this thread...

I recently allowed a customer to pay upfront for the first time in a long time. He said that he probably wouldn't have the funds if he waited the 4-6 months I originally told him. I accepted the payment and told him I would do my best to fit his blade in early. That was over the Christmas holidays. Since then, he has phoned twice and emailed a half dozen times. His last email... "Me again. I am just checking in again on my knife. You said you would get a chance to work on it this week. Since I have already paid would I be out of line to ask for a delivery date?" ..... argghhhh. I just talked to my wife about it over dinner... now I'm headed back into the shop tonight to work on his blade. I just want to get it done. I won't take shortcuts... but I'm definately not inspired to go that extra length. It's sad because that is the best part for me .... I usually want to do MORE for the customer and the piece but like I said, I just want it out of my shop, now.

Rick
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I don't give delivery dates so-to-speak, but I do estimate when the knife might be done. Most of the time I am very close to that date. I never answer the phone, I have someone that does that so I can work. She does billing, and everything else. I don't mind answering emails, I check them everyday and answer everyone that inquires. I cannot think of a single customer that did not expect to pay money down on a custom order, in every other field it is customary.

I almost never feel presured, almost always give more than the customer asked for and have only had one knife returned, by a New York lawyer. It wasn't that he didn't like the knife, it was exactly according to the drawing we made. He just wanted to bully me, he was convinced he would get all of his money back and tried to intimidate me. The law is clear on commissioned artworks. I was able to resell the knife but I should not have had to resell the knife, I had already sold it once. His deposit covered the time, expense and hassle of the whole thing.

Like you said "what works for you.."
 
Ed is dead on. I have been stiffed a couple times. The lessons this taught me are valuable. I never make a knife that I couldn't sell on the exchange. I am not a full time maker and do not rely on knives to feed my family. I see why this being shafted would really hurt a full timer. My shop runs on a self sustaining budget. I sell knives to make more knives. When I get stiffed it effects the next knife on my order list. Yes I have sold knives at a reduced rate to be able to buy materials to fill upcoming orders.
I haven't started taking deposits yet, but it may be necessary in the near future.
 
As a buyer I hate to see this happen. I take a bit of pride in never backing out of a sale once I say it's done. but, there have been times...

I am currently engaged in getting a knife from a well known maker. I ordered it as a pair (two different patterns but matching details) two years ago. They were not cheap, being over $2k. I was asked up front if I would allow time for delivery because of other commitments, and had no trouble with that. It's now 18 months after they were promised, one has been delivered (over 1 year back) and the guy just cut the other one. Now he wants to change one of the major details.

I'm so tired of dealing with this that I told him to go ahead, knowing that a) I'll never buy another from him, and b) I'm selling these as soon as I get back to the States. I don't commission a lot of knives (6-8 this year); mostly I buy what I like when I see it. I have no problem writing a check, and it'll be good.

Dealing with people who don't deliver is aggrivating on both sides of the fence.

Back when I was working as a gunsmith (a trade very like this one) everyone I knew had a story about the guy who brought work in and never came back. And everyone had their own way of dealing with the problem. There's no "right" way; the best you can do is decide what works for you and make the sale conditional on that.
 
We have just about stopped taking custom orders. Mostly just for repeat customers.Nothing at all personal its just easier to make a tool and put it up for sale..We have never taken payment up front and never will. We also never accept payment without the buyer seeing pics of said item..
Lot of aggrevating lessons learned the hard way...
 
If you have committed to buying something you have to pay for it! That is just how it is.

These people who back out on a custom order should be banned and publicly shamed!
 
Lots of great comments here, from differing points of view. It's a complicated subject, but one worth discussing. I'm glad that hobbyists, full-timers and customers are all contributing!

Slightly off-topic... Not a custom order situation, but one that pertains to selling a finished, ready-to-deliver knife on the forums. I just put this together while thinking of this thread and covering my bases. I wonder if you all think this policy would be reasonable?

"First payment received gets the knife. Not necessarily the first person who says "I'll take it", "pm/e-mail sent", etc. In the event you make a good faith effort to buy the knife but someone beat you to it, I will return any monies remitted and extend a discount towards a future purchase. I truly appreciate your interest and business."

This might be especially pertinent to those of us who belong to more than one forum and might have the same knife up for sale on all of them... which I think should also be stated up front.
 
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I have to wonder if the knife that the customer ultimately bought was off the shelf, so to speak, because I doubt if he ordered another custom. What I am getting at, is whether you would have had that sale if you had a knife similar to what he was looking for, that was ready and availible when he first contacted you. He was obviously willing to spend money (a little too willing maybe but you can work that in your favor), but was satisfying an impulse rather than a long-term want/goal, and was ultimately not stuck on a particular knife. That he contacted you shows that he regards your work, but the wait on a custom knife is often longer than an impulse buyer will wait for. So it seems likely that you could have got his business with an availible piece of the right type.
Balancing your work between custom orders and "speculative" pieces for outright sale might allow you to get the business of impulse buyers as well as satisfy serious collectors. Just a thought, but there are buyers of both types out there, ready to drop serious cash. Check the "how much are YOU willing to spend...?" thread in the General Discussion forum, if you haven't already. The responses there frankly raised my eyebrows and made me question my day job, just a little.
 
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Mr T....

I'm thinking you should just accept any "I'll take it"s in queue.... meaning, if 2-3 people have expressed interest in threads on various sites, give them priority based on the date and time of their post. Give them a reasonable amount of time to solidify their commitment and if they can't meet the parameters, move on to the next person.

If I didn't think it would be way to confusing for members, I would "lock" all my sale threads with instructions to pm or email me... but then again most folks would probably pass you over thinking you closed the sale thread completely.

There must be a way to avoid the "I'll take it/pm sent" posts. I'm pretty sure that I've lost sales because overly excited buyer's "blow their wallet", only to find out they're shooting blanks.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Mr T....

I'm thinking you should just accept any "I'll take it"s in queue.... meaning, if 2-3 people have expressed interest in threads on various sites, give them priority based on the date and time of their post. Give them a reasonable amount of time to solidify their commitment and if they can't meet the parameters, move on to the next person.
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I see your point. Thanks :)
 
There's a GB&U forum here for just this occasion. If the guy ordered the knife, he should pay promptly and thank you kindly for the service. Anything short of that is a breach of contract, and IMO, we don't need the unethical around BFC. Had he been hit by a truck or struck by lightning, I might be more forgiving, but to bail just because he found something else? Post up his username in Feedback, forget about him after that, and offer the knife for sale on the open market.

From a buyer's perspective, however, I'm hesitant to pay a deposit on any custom. Too many reports of a few makers either (a) not delivering on goods (again, see GB&U) or (b) hanging onto deposit money forever before finally delivering a product years down the road. That's just my take. Others' mileage may vary.
 
So far I've only had 3 people back out (all BF members). In all 3 cases when I tried PM'ing, e-mailing, ect I get no answers back. When I check their profile page I see they are still on-line every couple days but fail to give me an aswer. I just wish they weren't so rude and could just give me an answer even if it is "no". Two of them I contacted before I started and they siad it was still a go, then 2 weeks later when the knife is done.......nothing.........
 
I'm just a hobby maker and not even that now for health reasons. I've never sold a knife and don't intend to if I ever get back to making them. I gave them away and have several that I have kept. I can add a little to the thread though.

I used to do custom leather work. For awhile I operated on the idea that when someone ordered something they intended to pay for it when it was finished. That was the way I did business and still do. My word is good. I quickly found out that a lot of people didn't share my principals. Everything I made was custom and I was stuck with it if the customer backed out. I was even dumb enough to let a couple of people "pay me next week" because I knew them or thought I did. Next week still hasn't arrived and it's been years. :rolleyes:

I quickly changed to 50% up front. That way I only got stuck for my labor and nothing out of my pocket if someone backed out. I never had any more problems. I did have a very few that balked at the deposit. I just figured it saved me work because they weren't serious about the purchase.
 
I personally consider taking deposits on knives as one of the worst wrecks a knife maker can get himself into. You need money, have a knife 1/2 paid for and sell it to another for full price and the man making the deposit still waits.

Bad things happen to good people, I can wait. I have a knife that a man paid 1/2 down two years ago, he asked me to keep the knife until he could pay the whole price. It still sets on my shelf and he no longer answers my phone calls. At least I have a knife to show folks who visit my shop.

Once a man wanted a gold guard instead of brass, he bought the gold and I finished the knife and sent him the filings along with the knife.

I make no promises as to date of delivery or price at that time, but try to stick in the ball park and no matter what never accept a deposit on a future knife. When you accept a deposit, you are in debt to the man making the deposit, I chose not to operate that way.

We all make our decisions that is called freedom.

Along that line I would never give a deposit to another maker.
 
I never take deposits. Puts too much pressure on an old man.

Recently, I had an order from a first-time customer for 6 chef knives, and 4 of them were to be personalized (meaning I had to order 4 stencils and mark 4 blades that I couldn't sell to anyone else). Still, no deposit required.

Why do I do it this way? I suppose that I still believe that a man will do what he says he will do. I may get screwed any day, but until then......... No deposits. By the way, the customer came through with flying colors.

As a side note: I once had a customer order a knife with an extra-long handle in desert ironwood. When the knife was completed and he received photos, he decided that he really wanted stag in the first place.

My solution: Told the customer I didn't have any stag and simply cut about an inch off of the ironwood handle and sold it to someone else. I also put that particular fellow on a complete "Ignore-in-the-future" list.

Robert
 
Just to add to what Mr. Fowler said above. The good, the bad, and the ugly forum is full of stories of people who pay either a deposit, or full price up front and never see a knife. Resoundingly, the reply is never pay a deposit or full price up front for a custom knife. If exotic materials are desired then the cost of the exotic materials should suffice.

Also, on the exchange, the general rule is "There is no deal until both parties are satisfied." If someone says I'll take it, then doesn't, the maker isn't out anything but a little time. There is no deal. Sure it is agrivating, but I'd like to know how many knives go UNSOLD because someone said they would buy it, then didn't. Heck, my general experience on the exchange is that it is nearly impossible to BUY a knife, because they go so fast.

It would be great if everyone had a crystal ball and could look into their economic futures to see what it will be like 3 years from now when their name finally comes up on a maker's wait list. I don't know about every one else's industry, but in mine 1 year is a LONG time. What is stable today is murky- at best- 3, 2, or even 1 year from now. Situations change. If it is such an inconvenience to make that occasional knife that someone can no longer afford, perhaps makers should spend more time clearing out their wait lists and less time taking orders for the distant future...
 
hlee said:
... Heck, my general experience on the exchange is that it is nearly impossible to BUY a knife, because they go so fast.

...
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I agree, I sent a message to a knifemaker a few days a go with respect to a knife that I saw pop up a few days ago here. Watched it for a few days just thinking about it. Took the decision to email him with a few questions about the blade. Unfortunately it had been sold to another member just moments before. Anyways, to make a short story shorter, he is going to make a blade of my own, similar to those for sale, but different. At the same time I've placed an order with Ariel, for a Damascus cross, but it won't be ready until May...

On to the point, with both of these orders I had pondered what proper etiquette was, should I be offering to pay a deposit or not. After reading this thread I've determined that deposits shouldn't be offered/as the buyer you should never suggest it. Though it might give the buyer (me) assurance that it is in fact going to be made, I don't also want to put undue pressure on the maker, plus, with no money of mine going into the project, If the knife maker/artisan can't make their rough "due date" then I can't really complain. If the knife is never made I don't lose anything either, though perhaps wasted time thinking, and anticipating the arrival of your new knife.

Sorry for the novel :/
 
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