Stopping Power

Howard Wallace

Howard Wallace

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The khukuri as weapon thread got me thinking. Firearm enthusiasts have a continuing debate on the abilities of certain cartridges to quickly incapacitate an opponent.

Knives are generally left out of stopping power debates. I have even heard it said that knives do not have stopping power, as they do not cause immediate shock to the central nervous system. If a critical organ cannot be targeted with surgical precision, they supposedly just cut and cause bleeding or muscle/tendon damage.

While this may be partially true for daggers, I do not think it is true for the khukuri. The mass of the khukuri enables it to do immediate structural damage to the skeleton, brain, or spine. Such damage can be immediately incapacitating.

It is this "stopping power" of the khukuri that has lead to the Gorkha fame and success in taking defended hills and trenches with charges of knife-wielding soldiers. Often the opponents had rifles or machine guns, yet they fell before the men with the knives.

Represented on the forum we have martial artists, firearm enthusiasts, and people with military experience. Here are some questions for your consideration.

1-Where do you think the khukuri falls in the stopping power debates?

2-What are the practical implications for the use of the khukuri for self-defense?

3-How does range fit into the equation?

4-The Gorkhas are often willing to "trade up." In other words, they will trade a hand for an arm, or an arm for a head. Does this attitude make sense in peacetime self-defense?

5-Does the khukuri lose any of its effectiveness if the defender does not immediately incapacitate the threat without mercy, and if so, is such an attitude appropriate and/or legally defensible in a self-defense situation?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Answer any or all.
 
Great questions Howard. From the research I have done and the reports I have read of combat with khukuris it seems there is a high initial shock that totally incapacitates the recipient. Just being struck with that kind of weight and leverage has got to leave a real serious impression. There are some reports where the knife glanced off a helmet or particularly hard head and the Gorkha had to strike again.

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JP
 
Interesting to speculate. Setting aside military use of the khuk', which is well-documented, the following ideas occur to me:
A big knife is as effective as a firearm in the hands of a cool and schooled fighter, under circumstances which include close quarters and especially darkness. Even a .45 might not stop an assailant with one shot, but a solid blow to the head or upper trunk with a Gelbu, AK or sirupati certainly will. For CQB I'd rank a good khukhri ahead of any pistol except the .44/.45 with the most effective hollowpoint bullets, leaving all 9mm/.38's and below in the dust. I keep my Gelbu handy while at home in a loose protective quick-draw sheath. I'd be as inclined to use it to repel domestic boarders as I would a firearm.
I've noticed some MA users of the khuk' suggesting that the spine or flat of blade is an option under less than all-out mortal conditions. Personally, I'd use the khuk' as a club only to spare the carpets. The knife has the greatest advantage when used as a chopping/cutting weapon, not a bludgeon.
Any weapon imposes its particular requirements for effective use. The khuk' requires some considerable strength in hands, arms and shoulders for deployment. Should anyone attempt to strong-arm my wife, she will not use a khuk', but a small dagger (either an old Gerber or the Al Mar Fang-1) to dissuade him.
To use a knife in defense, you must be willing to close with your opponent. Many people can't or won't do this. For them, a firearms is clearly the best choice in a defensive tool.
I wouldn't willingly trade a drop of my blood for 'victory' in a fight. Victory is when I emerge unscathed from the encounter. That means I have to know when to fight, when to retire, when to precipitately retreat. It's never easy, even when the situation is as straightforward as it is in war.
I would be less surprised to see an assailant retreat from the knife than from a handgun.
Ken

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The sword cannot cut itself, the eye cannot see itself.
 
Stopping power? Yes indeed. Only the most determined opponent will continue to pose a threat when his head is lying on the floor next to his ankles... Of course, putting that potential stopping power into effect can be problematical and uncertain, particularly if the other guy won't hold still.

The debate about edge vs. point has been hotly contested since Napoleon's time, if not before. The weight of the evidence seems to be that if you want to kill someone, puncture wounds (a stab or a bullet) are more likely to succeed, since they're more liable to cause fatal damage. Stopping an enemy, on the other hand, is best achieved by shock - the blunt force trauma of a heavy bullet, slamming into a charging buffalo like a wrecking ball, or a baseball bat or nightstick in the teeth.

Cutting weapons fall somewhere between the two. A slicing cut from an extremely sharp blade is so 'efficient' that very little of the energy is dissipated in the target - I've heard it said that having your arm cut off with a properly-edged katana is next best thing to painless - and must therefore rely on damage to achieve a stop; but the human body is so constructed that any substantial cut will inevitably damage something crucial (a bone, a tendon, a bunch of nerves &c) By contrast, a heavy cut with a blunt sword can easily kill by shock alone, even if the damage is insufficient to prove fatal.

I can't imagine a judicious blow from a khukuri not stopping a fight; the weight and forward impetus inherent in the concave cutting edge must surely carry the blade rapidly through flesh and soft tissue to bone; whereupon either the bone is cut through (instant cessation of hostilities) or it stops the blow without being cut, whereupon all the force of the blow is translated into jarring shock (ie crippling pain) - that's assuming it hasn't snipped through an artery or the windpipe on its way.

Run a man through with a rapier or a smallsword or shoot him with a .22 and he may well not notice until, to his great surprise, he falls down dead (by which time he may well have killed you). Whack him on the junction of shoulder and neck with a 20" sirupati, and the only person he'll inconvenience after that is the mortician charged with reassembling the bits.

Unlike a gun, a khuk is always loaded and always 'real'; the only issue confronting an attacker who faces one is whether he's feeling lucky. Factors likely to influence his decision include the status of his proposed victim - a khukuri in the hands of a 75-year-old lady is rather less terrifying than the same khuk brandished by a 6'8" Marine - and environment (I'm lying in bed, hear a noise, reach for the khuk under my pillow. If the attacker's on the other side of the room, I have time to jump out of bed and scrag him. If he's standing over me, the advantage the khuk gives me is marginalised) Of course, even a little old lady lying in bed can pull a trigger...

The Spartans were the most feared soldiers in ancient Greece. When someone asked a Spartan why his people used such short swords, he replied, "Well, you see, we like to get close to our enemies..."

If someone's 20 feet away pointing a gun at my head, I'd have to feel very lucky to have at him with an edged weapon; if he's three feet away, I might consider betting my footwork and the hours I've spent on Iaido practice against his reflexes and his nerve, especially if he figures I'm no threat because my sword's still in its scabbard, or (better still) he's forgotten to flick off the safety.

The short answer is, it depends...
 
Hmmm... conjecture only, but this may be the reason for the grossly dropped points on weapon type Khukuris as in the 18th century. The blade tip is meant to be roundhouse "hammered" or "spiked" in point first, then ripped out rather than slashed across (sirupati) or lopped thru (ang khola).

It is all on a continuum in which the blade shape determines how it is used - hammering, chopping, slashing, thrusting.

Me, I'm waitin' when the hardware store opens up and long gone from Dodge before the troublemakers come to and have their morning eyeopener (if I got the choice).
 
As I said when i got my 20" sirupati...supposedly the slender, delicate member of this family:

getting hit with one of those would make the ER staff think you got nailed with a helicopter rotor.

wink.gif
Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
When the Army used sabre`s, many Cav. types would leave them dull; thinking a blunt trauma would serve, and they wouldn`t be unhorsed by a stuck blade. A VBT,very bad thing.
 
When I learned MA, a blow was to penetrate not to push. If analogy works for this case, a knife in combat must be as sharp as possible with cost of stopping power.

Now I'm not sure after I put my hands on 20" AK, heard a lot of things about khukuris. A khukuri blow is a good, formidable compromisation that I never want to face.

In Japan around 400 years ago, a kabuto-wari, or helmet-crusher, was often a simple steel bar of 10 lbs. often without edge applied to hit the helmet to take the enemy down to the earth, then short sword did its job.

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Did you enjoy today?
\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 

I couldn't tell you where a khuk would fall in a line up of stopping weapons. I've never used guns enough to know. Does a khuk have good stopping power? Definately. I've used similar shaped objects in a fight before and they did wonders. One was a deeply curved walking stick( fwk model maybe ) the other was a wooden snake. Luckily I've never had to use a khuk in battle. Would I take one with me if I did? You bet. In my opinion one of the best brawl weapons ever created is a baseball bat. I didn't think it would have the effect that it did. Dropped the guy immediately. Would I trade in arm for a head? Only if I had to protect someone or something dear to me.

- D
 
A Khuk allows effective "stabs", "cuts", and, unlike many bladed weapons, "chops". as pointed out above, the shock-trauma of a powerfull chop is devastating. A cut or slice, and certainly a deep stab, may actually have greater lethality in the end, but that heavy chop, if it scores, is an instant stopper. Only an ax can match the chopping potential of a khuk, and most axes are fairly unweildy. I have trained a great deal with axes, and the khuk allows much greater versatlity of technique.
 
In the Martial Arts, I was taught when breaking a board for instance, you are to place your thoughts through the other side of the board instead of just hitting it. ---The curved shape of the khukuri I think would have this same effect, giving it more power. By the way, I am no expert in breaking but I have done it.
 
Very interesting considerations. If we think of stopping power as force -- pounds -- and call up old faithful, F=ma, the mass of the khukuri makes a considerable diffence when compared to knives half or even 10% of its weight.

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Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
There appears to be a consensus so far that a blow from a khukuri would be an effective fight stopper.

However, to deliver such a blow the khukuri wielder must be in close proximity to his target. The khukuri has no stopping power if it's out of range. If the opponent is not close enough, and he has a longer-range weapon, the khukuri wielder either has to get close enough or retreat. Getting close often may require willingness to pay a cost.

A khukuri is a threat and remains a threat only at close range. This implies that the most effective tactic is to come into range and strike immediately. While out of range the khukuri wielder is vulnerable to long range weapons, and while within range but prior to striking is vulnerable to both grappling and other weapons.

Both of the above points have implications for home self-defense.

1. The defender must be willing to pay a cost to close.
2. The ability to engage or to threaten from behind cover is limited.
3. The ability to offer an option of surrender and subsequently control the aggressor from a distance is limited.

I think each of these points is an argument in favor of a firearm over a khukuri for home self-defense.

Points in favor of the khukuri for home self defense are:

1. It would be less attractive to a depressed or otherwise mentally ill family member who might use a weapon to do harm to him or her self.
2. A khukuri may be available to people who for some reason or other can't possess or use a firearm.
 
Interesting the references to axes and hammers. Can't recall the reference, but supposedly a general, possibly from theturkic/macedonian area was musing that of all the weapons he'd seen used, only the axe had regularly ended a fight with a single stroke,

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My job today is to enjoy life , whether I like it or not!
 
When talking about stopping power in defense situations, the real key is the willingness of the aggressor to be stopped. A bullet can only physically stop a person in one of three ways--scrambling the central nervous system so that signals can't get from the brain to other muscle groups; shattering the skeletal support so that the agressor can't stand; or causing sufficient bleeding to lead to unconsciousness. Short of these outcomes, a determined person can continue the attack. Just read some accounts of the exploits of Medal of Honor winners to see what a determined human being can accomplish in spite of fearful wounds. In the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, the offender that killed 2 and wounded 4 agents did so AFTER he had recieved a non-survivable wound from a 9mm.

The discussion of stopping power in handguns is realy about the statistical probability that one solid hit will cause an immediate cessation of hostilities. Thus, those who claim that the .45ACP has 90% stopping power are saying 9 times out of 10 an aggressor struck with this round will immediately cease his agressive activity. This doesn't differentiate as to whether the person chose to stop or was stopped by one of the conditions above.

The same considerations would apply to other weapons, though I suppose we could add in being knocked unconscious by a blow to the head into the stopping factors for such weapons as baseball bats.

A solidly placed chop or cut from a kukhuri could easily cause more trauma and injury than a similarly placed bullet wound. This could cause the agressor to choose to stop sooner.

 
Great comments here, not much to add.
Bill and Mr. Powell know a bit about my background though I'm not as experienced Broken Arrow.

Southern Filipino Weapons (kris, barong) share similar traits as the kukri. Chopping power obviously, stabbing can be done.
The notion of 'trading' is tricky a lot of it is the person's individual mindset and skill. From what I understand, charges are meant to drive the enemy back/gain territory.

If a person is too slow or wants to fight then here we go. With the barong/kukri, the idea of a 'block' (manuever to complete absorb a blow) is possible but not desired really. These weapons are hit and run meat cleavers. This notion is cut and run around, you may have to defend territory but that does not mean necessarily to stay in that one spot and try to defeat the masses.

Range does matter as it allows escape and influences strategy. When Bill says "the kukri gives an unstoppable blow in combat", it arouses my mind. Why? Because I don't want to be mentally defeated if I meet a guy with his kukri who wants to hurt me.
Don't get me wrong, I do respect the chopping power of the kukri however if I can't let myself be mystified in combat.

Re: A woman and a kukri. I think the Sirupati is best overrall especially for a woman who was NOT raised with a kukri. If she was then either an AK or Sirupati can do.

Self Defense wise, largely you'd have to be viewed as the victim and a victim. I say 'a victim' because for some if you aren't actually hurt some still think civility between parties rules all.

I think you would have a hard time in court with even a 12" Dhankuta in court, probably best left for home invasions. Most folk have never seen a kukri and that 'exotic edged weapon' ideal may spook them.

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 05-26-2000).]
 
Bill,

It sounds like you have all the bases covered.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." I agree with Gunhou that there are certain circumstances in which a khukuri is equal to or superior to a firearm. It's just that every choice carries with it implications and consequences, and I wanted to stimulate thought on what they might be.
 
Most people as I know born & raised in the USA are not familar with the khukuri as the Nepalese, especially the Gorkhas. We here all like the khukuri because it is an awesome blade, either for collection or to hand down to family, or to just study this fascinating blade and the culture associated. --- As for defence, I wouldn't want to be the person attacking someone or breaking into a house and have the owner coming at me with a khukuri.--- We all know that if a person gets hit with a khuk they will have a very serious problem --Look what it can do to a bear!.
 
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