Stopping Power

Howard:
Re: Trading a hit for distance in a fight...
I said I wouldn't 'willingly' trade a hit for a chance to get closer to an opponent, if there was an opportunity to do otherwise.
I live in a rural area of New England. We are starting to get druggie crime here. In my present personal situation, the worst case scenario would probably be an at-home, close-approach strong-arm attack by a young guy or two who hold the elderly in contempt. This might be a day or night time smash-in (happened like that down the road a ways last year) of punks looking to intimidate a feeble old (!) couple and pick up some dope money. . In these circumstances the big knife would probably come into play, and damn the carpets.
I usually have a knife in the vehicle when on a trip. Same circumstances would apply. If someone put a gun on me from 50 feet away, I would be a fool to charge them. But a bit closer...well, they might run into that 'helicopter blade' effect before they knew it. At night, in my own bailiwick, at close quarters, while I could grab the .41 Mag. pistol or even the lever rifle behind the door, I can only say that the last few times I investigated bumps in the night, Gelbu was in my hand, and god help the goblin who jumps out and says BOO to me. Dark and close, he's my meat, as it were.
Tom: You and all Brits have my sympathy. A government that punishes legitimate self-defense is an abomination. There is a movement in that direction on this side of the pond, but TG, it hasn't become the law of the land, and hopefully never will. Men aren't supposed to be prey.
Ken

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The sword cannot cut itself, the eye cannot see itself.
 
Thanks Gunhou. That clarifies things. I don’t think our basic approaches differ much. I apologize to you and Ray for the abrasive tone of my earlier note. I get impatient trying to fill in the gaps in my understanding.

Tom, you are the one for whom this dilemma is the most real, because of the limitations you face. You have obviously devoted some thought to this issue. What are your thoughts on the adaptation of Iaido techniques to the khukuri? Generally the khukuri emerges from the sheath with the back of the blade leading, in contrast to the katana. This seems like it would slow things down and require a couple of separate motions, either draw/chop, or draw/twist. Have you come up with a quick draw/cut that works with a khukuri?
 
Tom,
Remember, if needed, nature is your friend and the bogs seldom turn down a good meal.
Dan
 
Ah, the good old days before the BIA made them padlock off all the useful mineshafts. A course any welder worth his salt can fix up a link in the chain so's nobody notices...

(Out in the desert you don't let nothin useful go to waste, specially a valuable asset like a nice deep dark hole in the ground.)
 
Howard Wallace wrote -

"What are your thoughts on the adaptation of Iaido techniques to the khukuri? Generally the khukuri emerges from the sheath with the back of the blade leading, in contrast to the katana. This seems like it would slow things down and require a couple of separate motions, either draw/chop, or draw/twist. Have you come up with a quick draw/cut that works with a khukuri?"

I can draw a 20" village sirupati fairly quickly; I just park it in my sash, cutting edge upwards, and draw as usual, trying not to think about the difference (if that makes any sense). Of course, the karda and chakma have to be removed first.

I don't think the khuks with wider blades or greater forward curve/drop would suit this technique.

The 20" sirupati cuts far better on the first stroke (ie the draw) than a wakizashi, but you can't get as much power into the second (finishing) cut.

Someone mentioned the risk of getting the sword stuck in the ceiling... One of the reasons why I like the wakizashi. It was, after all, designed for indoor fighting. A 29" katana is too big to use in a small room.

One reason for practising with the khuk (Bill; if you're reading this, read no further - depressing stuff ahead...) is that I may not be allowed to own a sword much longer - there's already an 'anti-sword lobby' calling for a total ban, and the subject's been raised in Parliament. A khuk, on the other hand, might just qualify as a tool rather than a weapon, tho' it's a slender hope given the way these people think. Even tho' I have my anvil and forge out back, if blades are banned, the same goes for them as for illegal guns - sure, it's no trouble to get hold of one, but you'd never dare use it or even keep it handy for use, for fear of getting caught with it and sent to jail.

In the final analysis, I think I'd be better off learning the not-so-ancient British martial art of dropping to my knees and sobbing 'No! Please don't hurt me!', as recommended by H M government.
 
Howard Wallace wrote -

"What are your thoughts on the adaptation of Iaido techniques to the khukuri? Generally the khukuri emerges from the sheath with the back of the blade leading, in contrast to the katana. This seems like it would slow things down and require a couple of separate motions, either draw/chop, or draw/twist. Have you come up with a quick draw/cut that works with a khukuri?"

I can draw a 20" village sirupati fairly quickly; I just park it in my sash, cutting edge upwards, and draw as usual, trying not to think about the difference (if that makes any sense). Of course, the karda and chakma have to be removed first.

I don't think the khuks with wider blades or greater forward curve/drop would suit this technique.

The 20" sirupati cuts far better on the first stroke (ie the draw) than a wakizashi, but you can't get as much power into the second (finishing) cut.

Someone mentioned the risk of getting the sword stuck in the ceiling... One of the reasons why I like the wakizashi. It was, after all, designed for indoor fighting. A 29" katana is too big to use in a small room.

One reason for practising with the khuk (Bill; if you're reading this, read no further - depressing stuff ahead...) is that I may not be allowed to own a sword much longer - there's already an 'anti-sword lobby' calling for a total ban, and the subject's been raised in Parliament. A khuk, on the other hand, might just qualify as a tool rather than a weapon, tho' it's a slender hope given the way these people think. Even tho' I have my anvil and forge out back, if blades are banned, the same goes for them as for illegal guns - sure, it's no trouble to get hold of one, but you'd never dare use it or even keep it handy for use, for fear of getting caught with it and sent to jail.

In the final analysis, I think I'd be better off learning the not-so-ancient British martial art of dropping to my knees and sobbing 'No! Please don't hurt me!', as recommended by H M government.
 
Howard
You read what I wrote?
No one in there right mind whats to get hurt.Give me an enemy that whats to get hurt and I'll hurt them.I read over what I wrote and cannot find what you mean.In your number 4 question you said something about the Gorkha trading a hand or arm for a head.I think that is more myth than fact and should not be part of any ones tactics.Keep his blade from you and for every strike blocked should be a strike retuned.

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Ray
 
This continues to be a very thought provoking thread with some very interesting and quite infomative information coming in.

You started a good thread, Howard, and hang in. You never know there may be another book in the making!!!!!!

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Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
"My khukuri self defense consisted of a strong offense of only three moves -- a head strike, gut strike, or leg strike. I always looked into the eyes of the opponent because they seemed to tell me what he was going to do -- perhaps lucky for me he always ran away. And, I conditioned my thinking to make myself to be willing to trade up -- I would trade a finger for a hand, a hand for an arm, and, of course, an arm for a head." -Kami Sherpa, Khukuri FAQ, "Training and Techniques"


[This message has been edited by Berkley (edited 05-28-2000).]
 
Would ya now.

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Ray

[This message has been edited by RayC (edited 05-28-2000).]
 
Tom, why are the dim-witted officials trying to get rid of swords? I consider myself rather well-read, and I don't recall reading anywhere that you folks have recently been experiencing a rash of sword-inflicted deaths. I really am curious as to what the ulterior motive is.
 
Ray,

Yes I read but I apparently didn’t understand. That happens a lot to me.

I’ll read again and give more thought to what you wrote. I am willing to bet that wisdom, and not just luck, has enabled you to survive this long. Sometimes wisdom doesn’t transfer too well, but I hope to gain some understanding without having to pay for it the hard way like you did.
 
Then - Vietnam,
And now - Clinton.

Reminds me of the real why I keep guns, in Woody Guthrie's immortal words:

"They asked would I fight for my country?
"I answered the FBI yea!
"I will point a gun for my country - but I won't guarantee you which way"

( Darn,this ought to be on the Memorial Day thread cause that's what I was really thinking of. To those who served for their country, hurray!)

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 05-28-2000).]
 
Steven F wrote -

"Tom, why are the dim-witted officials trying to get rid of swords? I consider myself rather well-read, and I don't recall reading anywhere that you folks have recently been experiencing a rash of sword-inflicted deaths. I really am curious as to what the ulterior motive is."

Steven, there have been two cases lately where swords were used in well-publicised incidents; in one, a crazy guy carved up some people in a church - luckily nobody died, but I think one guy lost a finger; in the other, a guy attacked a Member of Parliament and his assistant; the assistant was killed, the politician got a few cuts.

After both cases, a number of Labour members of parliament called for a total ban on swords and long knives. The TV and newspapers jumped on the bandwagon, of course.

Which means it's probably only a matter of time, since the Labour party has a huge majority, to the extent where there is no real opposition in Parliament. Besides, given the anti-weapon hysteria in this country, it's a guaranteed vote-winner.

(The fact that a sword ban would be as fatuous as the gun ban really doesn't count for anything. Since the gun ban, of course, more people have been shot to death in this country than ever before; the gun death rate has risen over 40% since the ban, according to government figures. There are regular gun battles on the streets of our major cities now; that kind of stuff simply didn't happen even 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago, when there were over 1.5 million gun owners in the UK out of a population of 50 million. Anybody with half a brain can see that 'criminalising' guns, or weapons of any kind, simply makes them more glamorous and desirable in the eyes of the very people who are most likely to misuse them - which is why the drug gangs now carry guns as fashion accessories, where 20 years ago they carried knives or axe handles, and why kids in many inner-city schools now carry guns for the same reason. If they ban swords, the same thing will happen.)

Hysteria sells newspapers, boosts TV ratings and wins votes. Read George Orwell's '1984', and you'll understand how Britain is run these days. The only difference is, every week is Hate Week...

 
Ohhh....oooh ooooh oooh.
smile.gif


Do you have a source for the data on crime rates?

You see, over here on the other side of the pond, our friendly liberals in academia would have you believe that we are the only country with any appreciable gun crime, so OBVIOUSLY its a product of our legalization of said weaponry. I'd like to get a good hard look at the facts and figures of english homicide-by-firearms rates. I mean, it ought to be non-existant, right?
wink.gif


Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
... 1-Where do you think the khukuri falls in the stopping power debates?

2-What are the practical implications for the use of the khukuri for self-defense?

3-How does range fit into the equation?

4-The Gorkhas are often willing to "trade up." In other words, they will trade a hand for an arm, or an arm for a head. Does this attitude make sense in peacetime self-defense?

5-Does the khukuri lose any of its effectiveness if the defender does not immediately incapacitate the threat without mercy, and if so, is such an attitude appropriate and/or legally defensible in a self-defense situation? ...
Click to expand...
It take me so long to understand the real meaning of stopping power! IMHO it all very much depends on who your opponent is, how bad is the injury being inflicted upon him & what sort of weapon he has! I (as a non MA guy) guess fatal blow is the best assurance ... a dead person won't attack you any more! LOL!!! Remember ... some fighters prefer death rather than alive but lost the fight & face! We all knows that according to old Samurai tradition a Kamikaze is to be perform to gain an honour when losing fight!

Khukuri is a unique blade weapon - I guess it's forward curved shape is enough to bring a stopping psychological impact before the fight! I guess the moment you draw your Khukuri then your opponent must have a scary feeling of losing his limb especially his head!

Anyhow another guess! In a life & death fight the opponent is not supposed to be given any 2nd chance! Failure of executing a fatal blow will always be utilized by the opponent to know the weakness of your move & whatever your weapon! Human brain is superior than weapon ... the moment your opponent gain the technique to counter back your other move ... it is your bad luck!

BTW! What does it means by peacetime self-defence? When somebody attack you ... I guess most of us just don't have enough time to think about peacetime self-defence ... we should be very busy thinking about how to stay alive!!! Of course we don't want to lose a single drop of blood ... BUT ... of course anybody just don't mind to lost a hand & stay alive if he can make his opponent lost his head when it is his only left alternative!

NEPAL HO!
 
"Entirely true. It's worth bearing in mind, however, that the gladius was atypically broad for a pure stabbing design, being up to 2" wide and having little or no taper. Getting stabbed with something like that would be rather like being run through with a shovel... "-----One word, OUCH!

BShipley quote:"Blood loss seems to be crucial to firearms and stopping power when a CNS shot is not made."

Yes in some cases. But with dangerous game a solid(bullet that is) that has a chance of breaking bone(especially shoulder bone) is more desireable than blood loss. Simlarly a disbling strike that lops off an arm or leg or guts-em can be more effective than a stab that causes blood loss only.

"Losing a limb wouldn't slow down a determined foe like getting stabbed through the guts."--Getting stabbed through the guts may not stop him either, if he is adrenalized and/or crazed, but at least with one less limb he is not as efficient.

Man, this is a really ugly discussion.
 

WARNING!!! POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE MATERIAL AHEAD!!!!


What! A sword ban! What kind of crap is that!? Seriously Tom, move to Nevada. Or if worse comes to worse you can come live with me. You and Ian, but I get free swords as the rent payment! I honestly don't understand why people get so obsessed with banning weapons. I lived in a reasonably bad neighborhood when I was younger and the most common weapons carried were Mac 10's(? I think) and balisongs and switch blades. The very weapons that the ban in South Bend most stongly enforces! The post earlier about people wanting them as glamour accsessories was completly right in my opnion. That's it, we should pool our money together and buy an island off the florida cost. I read that you can get a decent sized one for about 25 million, depending on what country you buy it from. Hey, it's possible!
SOAPBOX MODE OFF

Just to add another little comment I've recently ordered a sword from Tom Holt's friend Ian Whitefeild. I hope I spelled that right. The sword is essentially a gladius with a little flare and I intend to use it for daily carry.

- D
 
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