Stopping Power

Howard Wallace wrote -

"2. A khukuri may be available to people who for some reason or other can't possess or use a firearm."

Yes. Well.

Personally, if I had the choice between defending myself with my favorite 25" sirupati or a single-shot .25 ACP, I'd choose the .25 ACP every time.

But I don't; so I make do with what I've got - which may not be ideal, but it's 100% better than nothing at all...

Of course, since I live in the UK (sorry, cracked record time again) I don't have a legal right to defend myself. I'm only mentioning this (again...) because of the 'trading up' issue - which basically concerns 'what degree of harm would you voluntarily accept in order to win/stop the fight?' Would someone who's prepared to lose a finger or an eye be prepared to lose his freedom for the rest of his life? If the choice is between a quick death and a lifetime in jail, would you bother to fight, or just hold still and get killed? Would it make a difference if it was your wife or child's life at stake, not just your own? In the event, would you be able to make a rational choice, or would instinct take over?

I have to admit, I believe that these issues are rather more critical than 9mm vs. 38, or Ang Khola vs. sirupati. As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather be killed than go to jail, but I'm not sure I could stand by and see a loved one murdered in front of my eyes. Does this make me some kind of psycho, as my government would have me believe?
 
In case anybody wants to do some testing of stopping power here's an easy method.

Tie a weight on the end of a rope and hang it from a tree limb -- 10 or 15 feet should be plenty and any weight 20 or 30 pounds should do. Shoot the weight with a .45, .38, 50 calibre or any gun of your choice and see how much the weight moves. Then hit the weight with the khukuri of your choice and see how far the weight moves. You can get a comparison of pure stopping power.

Tom, I think most of your posts are excellent but some are so damned depressing I hate to read them and this last is a fine example. Would you start putting a warning sign on them? -- this post contains depressing material! Or, move to Nevada.

------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ

[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 05-26-2000).]
 
Tom, you sure give us folks in the U.S. a lot of food for thought. Unfortunately, the U.S. is becoming more and more a nation of sheep, willing to follow blindly wherever our "esteemed" officials and a minority of knee-jerk liberals take us, with fewer and fewer people ever stopping to consider where we might be heading -- that we might very well be on the path to our own slaughter.

One has only to read the history of the Holocaust to know where the erosion of civil liberties can lead.
 
Stopping power, humm. This is a good topic.

First off, with guns, there are several stopping power measure by different people over a very long time. Some favor the high velocity high energy lower weight bullets while others favor the low velocity, high momentum, slower moving rounds. Some prefer fast expanding bullets others prefer solids. It all depends on the game you're after, including human game.

In hunting the standard by which all others were measured became the nosler partition. Now there is a ton of really good alternatives. In handguns for defense, the hydrashock became the standard by which all others are measured, and still is to some extent. It is the most widely used round of all by proffesionals, followed by the golden saber.

So now back to knives. I think you can make an argument for a heavy khukuri, that will break/sever anything in it's path. and you can make a case for the much faster and lighter blades that may not break bone but can be equally lethal and much faster to get into action.

The heavy khukuri is probably like a rifled slug. If it hits you, you are going down, even if you are wearing armor. The lighter faster blades are probably more like a handgun caliber, which can kill you if properly placed. The benefit of the lighter blade is speed and accuracy, while the larger blade may produce more damage.

But the biggest factor is your oponent. Is you're oponent a hyped up moro or drugee on angel dust, that can literally soak up damage like a spunge unless you sever the spinal cord. Some people use a 338 win mag on white tail deer(slight overkill), while others use a 30-06 on Alaskan Brownies(severely underpowered at ranges greater than 200 meters).

I think a medium khukuri like the sirupati is a great weapon and may be just about ideal for it's size, but who really knows?
 
Blood loss seems to be crucial to firearms and stopping power when a CNS shot is not made.

This in mind, what would cause more blood loss than a knife wound?

Stabbing wounds are more efficient at incapacitation than slashing, something Roman Legionaries and the millions of their vanquished foes knew only too well. The Roman gladius was designed to thrust rather than slash.

I dare say a Khuk would be less efficient, since chopping isn't the best way to stop an opponent short of taking his head. Losing a limb wouldn't slow down a determined foe like getting stabbed through the guts.
 
Howard
No one wants to take a knife to a gun fight,but if presented with the problem of having to defend my life the best weapon is the one in your hand.My hand is most time holding a khukuri.There is no such thing as a minor wound from a blade like that.I have read 100s of books on caliber and stopping power,I have used a 45acp and various battle rifles and prefer a rifle to a hand gun.Yes if your arm is 30feet long then you could be that far away but,,,,,,not possible.You must get or be with in striking distance.A kinfe doesn't gets its power from energy like a bullet,instead the power comes from the size of the wound.Even the most powerful caliber will only do its job if the vitals are hit.Deprave the brain of oxygen and the body dies so you must drain blood that carries the oxygen as fast as you can.With a khukuri this is not a problem removing a hand that is holding a gun or chopping through the collar bone down into the lungs or removing a head is easier than chopping wood.
Now I think trading a hit to get a hit is a very bad idea the reason you are fight is to live.You do not win a war by dying for your country you win by making the other guy die for his country.
There can be no dispute that a khukuri is an able weapon but in all my years of training if I have learned any thing it is that;YOU ARE THE WEAPON.

------------------
Ray

[This message has been edited by RayC (edited 05-28-2000).]
 
Bill Martino wrote -

"Tom, I think most of your posts are excellent but some are so damned depressing I hate to read them and this last is a fine example. Would you start putting a warning sign on them?"

Sorry if I spoilt your day, Bill. Nobody likes a prophet of doom (and I did apoloise in advance in the message itself...)

But... Since it's too late to do any good here, all I can do is try and stop you guys (who still have a few rights) from getting complacent.

As for moving to the States - if there was any way I could, I would. Count on it!

--
 
Ray and Gunhou,

You have both acknowledged that the khukuri is a short-range weapon, and then said that you’re not willing to get hurt closing the distance.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like to get hurt, nor do I plan to. I don’t plan to trade up unless absolutely necessary. I decrease the chances of it being necessary by usually having ready access to long-range tools. If you are going to fight with solely short range weapons you had better consider the options for closing distance. Staying out of your weapon’s range will get you hurt worse.

I am reminded of the politicians at NASA. “We’ll build it better, faster, and we won’t spend any money to do it!” Well, it sounds good and wins votes, but it ignores basic realities.

There is a good possibility I’m missing something in your philosophies. I recognize that you both probably have much more experience than I do. Can you guys explain a little how you would deal with the problem of distance?

Tom,

It would be an honor to have someone like you immigrate. But you can do a lot of good by raising disturbing questions where you are also.
 
Tom, keep reminding us even if it is depressing. I'd hate to see things get worse here than they are -- but I am sure they will get worse before they get better.

Can anybody besides me tell that Ray is a seasoned combat vet?



------------------
Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
 
Tom, it may be depressing, but please keep reminding us of the freedom that we have in this country but are on the verge of losing. We Americans should be always vigilant, but we get lazy. So anything that anyone can do to jar us from our slumber is appreciated. I just wish there was a way that your message could be gotten to more of our citizens.
 
quate: "YOU ARE THE WEAPON"

Ray, I'll feel very sorry about the possibility included in your comments. What if the US government starts to ban individuals...

Getting serious, except dueling situation any kind of weapon of short or long range will find its most effective way. Then the guy who utilized his weapon more than the opponent will be the winner.

My MA sensei told me to make the fighting conditions as uneven or "unfair" as possible because it's the way MA masters achieved their victories regardless to his weight, body structure, and mustle power.

I remember only few words of sensei's wisdom. What a bad student...
Thank you guys for reminding me by this thoughtful thread.

------------------
Did you enjoy today?
\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 

B Shipley wrote -

"Stabbing wounds are more efficient at incapacitation than slashing, something Roman Legionaries and the millions of their vanquished foes knew only too well. The Roman gladius was designed to thrust rather than slash."

Entirely true. It's worth bearing in mind, however, that the gladius was atypically broad for a pure stabbing design, being up to 2" wide and having little or no taper. Getting stabbed with something like that would be rather like being run through with a shovel...

Most blades made primarily for stabbing are long and thin; the 18th century smallsword, often described as the most efficient non-firearm sidearm ever designed, was feather-light and made a roughly thirty-caliber hole, with very little shock or trauma. It was by no means uncommon for duelists punctured in the gut with smallswords to walk away from the fight saying they felt OK, and fall down dead ten minutes later.

As regards range, closing in, blades vs. guns and the price you'd be prepared to pay to win or stop a fight; I gave this a degree of thought a while back and decided to learn Iaido. Given the increasing likelihood of having to confront an intruder armed with a gun in my home, I wanted the best compromise I could think of between ensuring my own safety and avoiding legal consequences that would be worse than the assault itself.

One option was to get an (illegal) gun - not difficult in this country, there are over 3 million of them on the streets according to the UK police. But since even owning an illegal gun would land me in jail for 10 years +, this wasn't a viable option, since I'd never dare have the thing handy for fear of being caught with it.

That left a choice between unarmed combat and some kind of edged or blunt weapon. I'm too old and fat to learn unarmed combat, so I looked at (a) swords and (b) some form of quarterstaff. Staffs are ideal from one point of view - you can neutralise an attacker without necessarily killing him (and going to jail for life).

But the staff is unwieldy in a confined space; if I ever have to fight, it'll be in one of the rooms in my fairly small house, and there isn't enough space to use a staff effectively.

As for blades; how best to use one against someone holding a gun; and how to defeat the enemy without killing him?

In Iaido, you start with the sword sheathed, ie not presenting an immediate apparent threat. The draw and the first cut are combined in the same action. Thus, if you practice a lot and get fast, you can go from posing no obvious threat to disabling the enemy in (literally) a fraction of a second. To increase the time available, I practice a step forward and to the left as I draw/cut - this means that the guy with the gun can't shoot as soon as I move, or he'll miss. He's got to follow me before he can pull the trigger, and while he's doing that, I'm drawing my sword and cutting the arm he's holding the gun with, thereby either pushing the gun away from me or making him drop it outright. If he's still got hold of the gun after the first cut, I can remove his gun hand with the follow-up cut.

(Of course, this assumes that the bad guy is no more than a step away. But here, the confined-space aspect of the 'battlefield' works to my advantage; if he's further away than a step, I'd be able to retreat out of the line of fire. Obviously, if I have a choice between fighting and running, I run. I'd only fight if the bad guy was between me and the door, and I had nowhere to run or hide)

If all goes well, at the end of the procedure I'm alive, he's disarmed (maybe in more ways than one)and he's still alive - which means I may be out of jail in three years' time, if I get a soft-hearted judge.

I practice this drill with a wakizashi, but a 20" sirupati can be drawn fast with a little practice, and would probably cut bone better...

If any of you martial arts guys have any comments or suggestions (other than 'move to Nevada...') I'd be glad to hear them
 
So what's wrong with Bill and me wanting to have good people for neighbors, Tom?
 
I have no experience with these kinds of things so I am NO expert. Also, it sounds like you (Tom) have already thought things through in a pretty complete manner.

Were I in your situation, I might consider weightlifting to aid in cutting power and in wrestling over whatever weapons your opponents bring. I would suppose that pure unarmed training would be less important as at the very least your attackers are almost guaranteed to be armed anyway, and cardio training would only be real important if you wanted to try to run away.

I don't know anything about japanese swords but I am wondering whether your ceiling is high enought to use them to their full effect and to avoid the horrifying possibility of getting "stuck" on your critical life-or-death attack. I also wonder if a judge might be friendlier to the use of a traditional English-style sword as opposed to a foreign sword, but it's probably too hard to know.

In a home-defense situation such as the one you describe, my own personal preference would be a huge 4 lb. ang khola for maximum hacking ability, but it could be a bit slow...

Whatever weapon you choose, why bother drawing it from a scabbard? If you can find a safe, readily accessible place to conceal an unsheathed sword, that could save you critical time in the event you ever have to retrieve it.

Hard to know for sure.

Maybe someday things will turn around in your country.
frown.gif


-Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave K (edited 05-27-2000).]
 
Hmm... Smatchet and Roman gladius remnds me. Polearms.

Tom, could you own a drill rifle? Deactivated, but with bayonet and it's lug?

Recall the story of a burglar breaking in to a guy's house when his wife, not into guns, was home. She apparently locked herself into his study and as the burglar broke down that door too, grabbed a rifle already fixed with bayonet, and charged the burlar, who did an about face and kept on going.

The short Cold Steel Assegai seems ubiquitous. Real boar spears run what? $50-75? If the smatchet works out, can a gladious or celtic leaf sword be far behind? Replacement blades for La Mechanique? Viva la Revolution! Only we could do the beheadings as part of the halftime Pro Football festivities. "Governor So-and-so; Congressman Such-and-such, come on down, the commitat has drawn your names!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top