strider/ buck strider

[STR]

no point to cut the lockbar and tang so wide if contact is meant to be kept so far from the pivot.

Exactly my thoughts when I first noticed this! If you did make the lock the size of the contact area though the lock would look something like this. Not so big and impressive this way is it?

STR

 

[Barrabas]

All, just got the response back from Duane @ Strider - actually he sent it back yesterday right after I sent it, but for some reason it was routed to my junk mail box in error..

Long story short - awesome Customer Svc - Extremely willing and courteous to do whatever was needed. - exactly what I wanted.:thumbup:

He said if I'd ship it back they would get it taken care of the way I wanted it.
No Charge, would sharpen/ svc as well while it was there.

The coolest thing to me is even if it left the factory up to their specs, - but I as as a valued Customer would like it different - they'll do it.

I've asked his permission to post his entire response, but wanted to make sure he was cool with that before I did so.

 

[Barrabas]

Hi All, Here is the coorespondence with Duane, just heard back and he gave the OK.
----

Mr. Seth,
Thanks for the kind words and rest assured, we will get your SNG tuned properly as well.
No additional fees are necessary and we will resharpen and completely service your SNG.
Please send it in and we will address it promptly.
All the best,
Duane Dwyer



In a message dated 3/20/06 1:44:20 PM, barabbas@wirefire.com writes:



Good Day,

I hope this finds you well.

First off - Your Knives are great! Bought a PT a while back, and as soon as I got it, I was
looking forward to when I could get a SNG.

I now have the Gen 6 SNG Tanto as well, and I'm so glad I have it. The edge durability and
ease of sharpening & Ergos are much better than the Sebenzas I have.
In fact after I got the SNG, I gave the Seb to my wife to use in the kitchen..

I do however have a question.

The Blade to Frame lock up is near 100% on the PT, but on the SNG it does not appear to be
engaging on more than 1/10th of the blade.

It did not bother me until I was working with some serious grit (Cutting many bags of Lime
etc)work last weekend, and I noticed some miniscual play after prolonged exposure.
I am concerned that since minute play has resulted, can you readjust the SNG so that I can
have more of a stable Contact, more like unto the PT?

I read the FAQ, but since I have a little play thought I'd better check in with you.

Since the contact area is so small, and as hard as I use it every day, I'm concerned more
play will result in the not to distant future without some help.

Is that a valid concern?

If it is, and I should send it in, would I only include the $15 shipping and handling or
would you need additional $$?

Thanks for making great knives, and for your time as well.

Seth

 

[BadKarma05]

ive been a little overwhelmed with this post hehe. so is it fair to say that an 880's Buck/Strider is a good buy?

 

[STR]

The 880 is a great knife. I've had two of them. A tanto and a spear point. The spear point I never should have sold. It was one of the first production runs in BG42 steel. I took some pics of it side by side with the regular production run tanto blade and the lock and liner thickness was noticeably beefier on the first production. Here is a link to the diff for your reference. Notice the thickness difference in the locks where they meet the blade. If you can find one of the 1st Prod. ones I'd recommend it. By the way, neither of these are little knives. These are some beefy capable folders. The blades on these knives are 4.5mm thick.

Even above all that I still prefer the little 881 over them which is why I still have that one. Its been discontinued by Buck though.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52166&d=1139073738

STR

 

[SpyderJon]

ive been a little overwhelmed with this post hehe. so is it fair to say that an 880's Buck/Strider is a good buy?

The 880s are a good buy. Look at it this way, Buck will stand behind their product every bit as much as Strider will. They're very competitively priced knives with good steel and great tactile feeling. Since you live in the US, it'd be a small matter for you to get a fix from Buck if anything goes wrong, but I'd say their consistency is such that with an 880 at least you'd not likely find a dud. Just ask your trusted dealer to look at it for you, or ask to see a few and decide which one you like best if quality is really a concern for you.

 

[Gryffin]

I'm a final year Mechanical Engineering student.

And I earned my mechanical engineering degree twenty-two years ago. Trust me, your education is just beginning.

When you get out in the real world, you'll discover that that things are always more complicated than they look now: tolerances stack up in ways you didn't anticipate; parts deform and wear, changing the geometry you though you analyzed; and of course, users will do things you didn't plan for. On the other hand, you'll also learn what to safely ignore or approximate, so you can put your work into what's important.

Anyhow, enough of this "When I was a lad..." drivel.

It's not at all difficult to put a couple hundred inch-pounds of torque on the pivot of a hard-use knife like a Strider. On the Strider STR shows, the point where the tang and lock meet is about a half inch from the pivot axis; that 200 in-lb torque translates to 400 pounds at the point. Now, what's the area that force is applied to? Let's take a guess, based on STR's observations: about 3mm = 0.12" high, by perhaps 1mm = 0.04" wide, for a total area of 0.005 sq in, for an overall pressure of 80 kpsi.

Now, here's the fun part: since the interface is angled, both surfaces will deform, but there will be a peak load near one of the outside corners; my semi-professional guess would be about half the load over probably a quarter of the area: 200 lb over .00125 sq in, or 160 kpsi. On brand-new sharp-edged hardened parts, it could be even higher.

If memory serves, 6Al4V titanium has a yield strength of 130kpsi, and a tensile strength of 145kpsi or so. Still think that titanium lock can't shear?

So, for the record, I'm four-square behind STR here.

When a properly-fitted lock engages, it'll "wipe" any crud from the locking surfaces, so Strider's explanation sounds to me to be a cop-out. All I can think of is, he wants to maximize the pressure at the interface so that titanium's galling properties will make the lock less likely to slip. But that's just a guess...

As for the question of why you want a wide lock bar (other than appearances), note that the contact point is about a half inch below the pivot, and about a quarter inch behind it, so there's a significant upward component to the load. A thin lockbar like STR drew would be at risk to fail by bending upward!

Having spent a lot of time on a factory floor, I'm inclined to believe STR's theory of fitted stop pins; shop tolerances being what they are, there has to be some way to adjust the fit, and the stop pin is the most obvious way to do so.

 

[Blop]

I guess someone has to write a book to be credible huh?

There are more ppl. in that world believing truth can only found in old books. But i do not count myself to them.

No, i was quoting BT, to make it easier to see, what i was talking about. Not more or less.

I do like this thread and have to read your posts again. Thanx.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

When a properly-fitted lock engages, it'll "wipe" any crud from the locking surfaces, so Strider's explanation sounds to me to be a cop-out.

Indeed, I would expect it to just be something to fill up rather than vent, based on contaminating locks with dirt, ash and sand, especially in such tiny spaces. As with any claim of performance I would simply ask "show me the data".

Surely no one would make a rigerous performance claim without actually evaluating the design and having hard facts to back it up. Computer simulations and theory are fine but at some point you have to do a real physical experiment.

All I can think of is, he wants to maximize the pressure at the interface so that titanium's galling properties will make the lock less likely to slip. But that's just a guess...

Does this actually work though, is this even the more critical factor in lock stability? The most stable liner/integral I have seen to date is the small Sebenza and it mates full from front to back and half way (currently) across the width.

I think the Sebenza owes most of its security to the really high precision of fit which keeps the lock stable.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I think it has to do with the fact that Chris has it down pat for the proper angle of the grind where the lock and the blade mate together also Cliff. If you really study many of the frame and liner locks out there even comparing some of the same models from maker to maker you see as wide a variance in the angle of the grind as you do knife designs. At some point if the angle is too steep, no matter how well the titanium lock galls to the blade, if there is enough pressure on the blade and in the right direction the lock will slide off and be defeated.

Perhaps the thought is that reducing the contact area focusing more pressure in one small spot is just enough to make up for any inconsistancy in making the grind angles on the blades mating area to steep?

STR

 

[hardheart]

I've never had a BM liner fail, but how do you think the curved tang grind affects contact?

 

[3Guardsmen]

I've never had a BM liner fail, but how do you think the curved tang grind affects contact?

In my experience, BM's "modified locking-liner" (the concave radius) merely affects the "galling" of the lock face and the tang mating point. In other words, it doesn't "gall" like most Ti liner-lock faces/tang mating points do. Like you though, I've never had a BM liner-lock fail.

Where I feel the concave radius tang grind really shines is, once the lock face is well worn, and as pressure is exerted on the spine of the blade, towards closing, instead of slipping (or rather sliding) down and off of the ramp like most worn out liner-locks will do, the curved tang grind stops the liner from slipping off all the way, averting a "catastrophic failure".

As far as the unique grind affecting contact, I would assume (and mind you, I'm no Rocket Scientist) that the total contact area, and the "galling" effect, is sacrificed in favor of preventing "slide-off" failure. I suspect that the lock face wears at a slightly different angle than the angle more traditional tang grinds would cause. I think, if you were to examine a BM "modified locking-liner's" (or "mono-lock") face after extreme wear, you'd find that the corners of the lock face wore more than the center of it.

There you have it, my $0.02 (doesn't necessarily mean it is worth a whole two pennies)!

Best wishes,
3G

 

[dantzk8]

The real question is: is there really going to be any noticeable difference from 3mm to 7mm of lock contacting the blade or vice a versa in normal use? Probably not. But what about extreme shocks and heavy use? Probably so.

STR,

Thanks for your posts, it's nice to read somebody who knows knives by their mechanical aspects. My PT has the defect you show on your first pic but i don't see any mark of wear on the blade or on the lock. The liner of my 881 mated perfectly the tang but is weared enough to give the blade a play.
I try to find an explanation. If you agree a wear is due to a play associated to a pressure, don't you think the important rigidity of the PT limits the damages and "saves" the knife? And i add: in normal use.
An other question please: lubricate the pivot lubricates too the mating surface of the lock, do you think it has an influence on the play and so on the wear?
I will read your reply with pleasure.

dantzk.

 

[MD13]

I have a SNG and a SMF. Both mine lock up the same way with the space in the lock bar. I put a pretty good beating on them at work and have not had a problem to date. Not to say I never will, but as long as I respect the knife and use it the way its intended, I don't forsee any issues. It won't stop me from buying another either. In fact I just recently picked a Mick Strider custom.

 

[Blop]

I put a pretty good beating on them at work and have not had a problem to date. Not to say I never will, but as long as I respect the knife and use it the way its intended,

I don´t want to start a war or something, but would you please explain what the intended use of this knife is or what you are intending to do with?

Your post sounds to me like you were saying: "There will be no problem....but..." Mabe i get you wrong, i just can´t get what "use it the way its intended" means looking at the superstrong and fat bladed folders.

In other words: If it is nothing more than pure cutting, were is the difference between any average 3mm stock thickness mid to high quality folder and that?

You can get that type for $60.00 more or less.

 

[MD13]

Yeah, kinda contradicted myself there huh? I use it mainly to cut hard plastic bands off of shipping crates, and I've been known to wedge the blade in between the tops of wooden crates to better remove them. By no means do I use it as a pry bar though. I wouldn't put any lateral force on the blade. A pry bar is for prying. I've just used it to wedge straight in. The blade is defeinately thick enough for that, and the pine soft enough. It just creates a gap between the top and the crate. I could use a different knife to cut the the straps, and I have before. Problem was, by a wierd slip, I had a liner lock knife disengage and cut my fingers pretty bad. That's what prompted me to get a better knife.

It didn't slip so much sideways, as the lock just failed. (Kind like a spine whack.) Pressure got put on the backside of the blade and it folded.

 

[Danbo]

The spear point I never should have sold. It was one of the first production runs in BG42 steel. I took some pics of it side by side with the regular production run tanto blade and the lock and liner thickness was noticeably beefier on the first production. Here is a link to the diff for your reference. Notice the thickness difference in the locks where they meet the blade. If you can find one of the 1st Prod. ones I'd recommend it. By the way, neither of these are little knives. These are some beefy capable folders. The blades on these knives are 4.5mm thick.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52166&d=1139073738

STR

I don't remember who I got my First Production Run Large Spearpoint Buck/Strider from, but I ain't givin it back!

 

[Daniel L]

This has been a great educational thread. I have the Terzuloa book and I always wondered about the minimal contant off the lock face onto the tang he was promoting.

Given the choice of less than 25% engagement, or 50%+ engagement I'd take the higher number any day. We're talking about your fingers.

And it's fair comment - if a mass producer can make a lock reasonably consistent at 50% engagement then sure as heck a $400 folder can do the same and not make cop out excuses such as "vents". I can understand that method of manufacture if tolerances aren't as tight - evidenced by the way that it seems Sebs are made when "done right."

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I wouldn't put any lateral force on the blade.

It is hardened steel, 3/16" thick, you should be able to walk on it. The primary reason you make knives out of those class of stock thickness is exactly so you can pry with them.

-Cliff

 

[MD13]

I've just always been told not to pry with knives. Hmmmm.... Maybe that was "don't PLAY with knives" Thanks for the info Cliff.