Strider / Hinderer / Other "hard-use" mid-techs: Why S30V/S35VN?

Comeuppance

Comeuppance

Fixed Blade EDC Emisssary
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Jan 12, 2013
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Don't get me wrong, S30V and S35VN are fine steels, but I don't see why so many manufacturers use them in large beefy folders. Both of those steels have great wear resistance, but they're so brittle! If you're going to make a $400+ knife, why not use 204P, Elmax, CPM 3V, Z-Wear, 110V, etc - steels that are tough as well as wear-resistant. I know several of them make models using some of the steels I listed, but it seems the fast majority of these otherwise rock-solid knives use paradoxically fragile steels. For that matter, many of them use 154CM, which is a perfectly decent steel, but can be readily found in folders 1/4 to 1/8 the price.

It's like this: Why would I buy an actual Hinderer for $600-800 when an 0561 has Elmax, similar handle materials, and extremely good build tolerances?

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to insult any of the manufacturers listed. I'm genuinely curious as to why they use those steels. It doesn't make sense to me.
 
Some steels have an extremely drawn out heat treating process that increases the cost overall. A few manufacturers have indirectly hinted that Elmax and M390 is much more expensive to heat treat than good old S30V. I'd imagine that some manufacturers would also like to stay within their comfort zone, time is money and a botched experiment with steel can affect the bottom line in the long run. Just a guess.
 
Comeuppance said:
Don't get me wrong, S30V and S35VN are fine steels, but I don't see why so many manufacturers use them in large beefy folders. Both of those steels have great wear resistance, but they're so brittle! If you're going to make a $400+ knife, why not use 204P, Elmax, CPM 3V, Z-Wear, 110V, etc - steels that are tough as well as wear-resistant. I know several of them make models using some of the steels I listed, but it seems the fast majority of these otherwise rock-solid knives use paradoxically fragile steels. For that matter, many of them use 154CM, which is a perfectly decent steel, but can be readily found in folders 1/4 to 1/8 the price.

It's like this: Why would I buy an actual Hinderer for $600-800 when an 0561 has Elmax, similar handle materials, and extremely good build tolerances?

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to insult any of the manufacturers listed. I'm genuinely curious as to why they use those steels. It doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...


If you read the S30V sheet here:

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf

Although the longitudinal toughness for all three of these grades
is about 25-28 ft. lbs., the transverse toughness of CPM S30V is
four times greater than that of 440C or 154CM. These higher
transverse toughness results indicate that CPM S30V is much
more resistant to chipping and breaking in applications which
may encounter side loading. In knifemaking, its higher transverse
toughness makes CPM S30V especially good for bigger blades



And this Article on S30V here:

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/S30V_update.pdf


The data sheet above indicates that the aim was to produce a
steel with toughness exceeding 440C and D2. I didn’t make a chopping type knife to
experiment with but I did chop a Douglass fir 2X4 in half with the fillet knife. It was
hard to put much chopping energy into the task because the knife was so light but there
was absolutely no damage evident on the thin blade
 
Last edited:
Comeuppance said:
Both of those steels have great wear resistance, but they're so brittle!
Click to expand...

No, they are not brittle.
S30V is tough, and according to Crucible S35VN may be a bit tougher than S30V. Though I doubt its enough to notice.
S30V has been proven, and I'm sure in time S35VN will be also. I own both, and am happy with both.
 
Ken44 said:
No, they are not brittle.
S30V is tough, and according to Crucible S35VN may be a bit tougher than S30V. Though I doubt its enough to notice.
S30V has been proven, and I'm sure in time S35VN will be also. I own both, and am happy with both.
Click to expand...

My personal experience with S30V tells me otherwise. I had a PM2 and a Manix XL, both of which had chipping and edge-rolling issues with just moderate use. Maybe it's a difference in heat treats? My 0561 did all of the same things I put the Manix and PM2 through without any edge damage - zip ties, straps, cutting hard plastic, cardboard, light carving... Not a nick in the blade after months of use.
 
Comeuppance said:
My personal experience with S30V tells me otherwise. I had a PM2 and a Manix XL, both of which had chipping and edge-rolling issues with just moderate use. Maybe it's a difference in heat treats? My 0561 did all of the same things I put the Manix and PM2 through without any edge damage - zip ties, straps, cutting hard plastic, cardboard, light carving... Not a nick in the blade after months of use.
Click to expand...

There's too many variables here to base your opinion on anecdotes: edge geometry and heat treat are incredibly important to edge chipping/rolling, so your experience with S30V isn't representative of the steel as whole. Also, it's pretty much guaranteed that the Spyderco's were ground much thinner with a more acute bevel than the ZT.
 
I've had Spyderco S30v chip when I put a 30degree inclusive bevel and cleaned a few squirrels. Did the same thing with a Case folder in ATS34 and it didn't chip. Strider does seem to be branching out more than some on their steels. The CRK's I've had never chipped and some held their edge well. I wish something like M390 was a standard steel for these upper tier production knives.
 
I'm sick to death of this bullsh*t.

Direct quote from Cliff Stamp:
"The worse case example of this was Crucible pushing impact toughness based on transverse testing which showed for example S30V being five times as tough as ATS-34/440C. Makers jumped on this and started pushing it and people walked away thinking that a S30V knife was five times as tough as a 440C knife - but this is nonsense because no one makes knives with the grain running from spine to edge."


Never believe someone else's "scientific" report unless its PEER REVIEWED, you personally understand all the "big words" used, and preferably they're not trying to sell you anything.

In short S30v is not a hard use steel. It just flat out isn't. I don't know how else to spell it out. It isn't, it won't, it'll never be, then end.

That doesn't make it a bad steel per se, but know what it is and what its limits are and don't buy marketing bullsh*t because at the end of the day its your money, your knife, and your life.
 
marcinek said:
So...you are saying don't believe Crucible's "scientific" report....believe Cliff Stamp's "scientific" report?!? :confused:
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No. Didn't you read what I just wrote? Nobody here is even going so far as to dispute Crucible's actual marketing data.

Go look up the word "transverse."

*edit*
Because this is apparently difficult, here is what I'm referencing in my post (#9) in this thread:

Ankerson said:
If you read the S30V sheet here:

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS30Vv1 2010.pdf

Although the longitudinal toughness for all three of these grades
is about 25-28 ft. lbs., the transverse toughness of CPM S30V is
four times greater than that of 440C or 154CM. These higher
transverse toughness results indicate that CPM S30V is much
more resistant to chipping and breaking in applications which
may encounter side loading. In knifemaking, its higher transverse
toughness makes CPM S30V especially good for bigger blades



And this Article on S30V here:

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/S30V_update.pdf


The data sheet above indicates that the aim was to produce a
steel with toughness exceeding 440C and D2. I didn’t make a chopping type knife to
experiment with but I did chop a Douglass fir 2X4 in half with the fillet knife. It was
hard to put much chopping energy into the task because the knife was so light but there
was absolutely no damage evident on the thin blade
Click to expand...
 
hunterseeker5 said:
No. Didn't you read what I just wrote? Nobody here is even going so far as to dispute Crucible's actual marketing data.

Go look up the word "transverse."

*edit*
Because this is apparently difficult, here is what I'm referencing in my post (#9) in this thread:
Click to expand...

So...yes. You are saying don't believe (i.e., challenge) what Crucible and seamountknifeowrks said, and listen to what Cliff Stamp says. That's what I thought you were saying.
 
or it could be that Crucible is honest, but it just doesn't matter in this specific instance. if a test that doesn't break an S30V blade also doesn't break a 440C or D2 blade, then the test doesn't show a difference between the steels.

S30V is pretty much okay for folding knives because 440C and D2 are also okay for folding knives. There are much, much tougher steels available, but folders usually aren't stressed thaat greatly. It isn't what the steel can handle as much as what the knives are never subjected to.
 
Do any Crucible reports mention hardness of tested blades? Could be possible the ones tested for strength, toughness, etc are not as hard as the blades in production knives? Did there used to be frequent reports of chipping with 440C?
 
marcinek said:
So...yes. You are saying don't believe (i.e., challenge) what Crucible and seamountknifeowrks said, and listen to what Cliff Stamp says. That's what I thought you were saying.
Click to expand...

I defy you to define transverse and to then revisit your statement.

But to spell it out for you in painful detail crucible said:
"Although the longitudinal toughness for all three of these grades
is about 25-28 ft. lbs."

So then what are the transverse numbers?

"CPM S30V 10.0 ft. lbs.
154CM 2.5 ft. lbs.
440C 2.5 ft. lbs."

Pulled straight off the data sheet.

So, in case it wasn't painfully obvious, steel is non-homogeneous. Its grain structure affords it different properties on different axes.

In this case, according to Crucible, S30v has a transverse toughness that is roughly 1/3rd (note an anecdote was offered in lieu of data) of its longitudinal toughness.

So, again according to this datasheet, you'd need to orient the grain spine to edge to see this performance gain at the edge. NOBODY DOES THIS. (ok maybe someone does this, but I'm struggling to think of why.)

So while the given data suggests to users that S30v is "five times as tough," its only five times as tough on one axis and that axis will normally be oriented in such a way as to not produce the at-edge results users typically look for.

Thats what that means. Was that clear enough?
 
You can believe both. Transverse means toughness when stressed ACROSS the long angle. So if you use your knife as a prybar then s30V will show you a difference. But if you use it as a slicer like everyone does, then you wont see any difference in toughness.
 
Comeuppance said:
My personal experience with S30V tells me otherwise. I had a PM2 and a Manix XL, both of which had chipping and edge-rolling issues with just moderate use. Maybe it's a difference in heat treats? My 0561 did all of the same things I put the Manix and PM2 through without any edge damage - zip ties, straps, cutting hard plastic, cardboard, light carving... Not a nick in the blade after months of use.
Click to expand...

Misanthropia said:
Also, it's pretty much guaranteed that the Spyderco's were ground much thinner with a more acute bevel than the ZT.
Click to expand...

Misanthropia is correct, you must take into account edge thickness. Your Spyderco's had a thinner edge than your ZT. Most all of my Spyderco's came with a thin edge, which I like. It's much more easy to take it up than down, so I like the fact they come with a pretty thin edge.
 
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