Strider / Hinderer / Other "hard-use" mid-techs: Why S30V/S35VN?

Cliff is a blade enthusiast, tester.....doesn't really matter though. Is what it is.

Any field reports of large-ish fixed blades made of S30V?
 
OrdnanceBubbaUSMC said:
Any field reports of large-ish fixed blades made of S30V?
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How large is "large-ish" and does using an auxiliary tool to apply greater force count as treating an edge as "larger?"

Likewise, as some people have been chastised for it above, what number of such blades would you have had to have tested before their sample size is large enough that their findings aren't discredited as just sampling bias?

Also for whoever meets these standards, what was your edge geometry and test substrate?
 
Not sure lol I'm going with the flow where Crucible recommends it suitable for "bigger blades", to me that is 7in+ in size. Is CRK the only ones to try it? I am remembering the Noss shenanigans with the Green Beret.

For me it is hard to imagine S30V being tougher than average at any size based off of users reporting chipping for over a decade. I noticed it once about 9 years ago before I paid attention to anybody else mentioning it.
 
Got a hinderer coming in s35vn:D. I know they were mainly using duratech 20cv. Now the new hinderer logo blades seem to be all coming in s35vn. I am guessing rick is sticking with this steel for a reason. Anyway's I have no experience with s35vn and am sure hinderer is going with it cause its a good performer. I did hear when s35 first came around, that the only advantage over s30v was it was easier to machine, but not a performance upgrade. Anyways I liked duratech 20cv (easy to sharpen and polish, no chipping, rolling and holds its edge), I'm sure I won't be disappointed with Hinderer s35vn...:confused:.
 
I mean if you're willing to accept all the reports of damage, chipping, fracture, etc that have come over the years with S30v then yeah based on those anecdotes alone you can conclude its not a high toughness steel.

Or alternately you can look elsewhere. Look at their own comparisons of S30v vs. 10v and S90v. Almost the same toughness, but look at the contrasting wear resistance. Its more than a slight over-simplification to equate toughness to edge damage or to use that chart as your only means of comparison, but I don't think you'll find many people telling you that S90v is a great idea for a big chopper and while obviously not identical they're not steels of radically different toughness. ;) So if you are willing to accept some of Crucible's somewhat simpleton comparisons as ultimate fact, you can start poking holes in the argument.

Again for everyone who is freaking out because their S30v knives aren't uber choppers..... don't panic. I'm not an S30v lover, but its not an atrocious steel there are certainly far worse. Generally, in a blade so small and particularly with the popularized absurdly thick primary bevel geometry and obtuse angles, its not an issue. You're not going to see Busse decide to drop INFI for S30v any time soon, because toughness wise they're just in completely different classes, but not all knives have to have ridiculous toughness to be good blades. Not everyone needs to be able to hack, twist, and pry their way out of situations on a daily basis, so all you who bought S30v cutlery, you'll be just fine. Of course if you did buy it thinking you just bought a magnum hammer-crowbar-razor which you'll need to go play total recall in a combat zone on a daily basis you might want to reconsider your choice in cutlery. Nothing that folds is really a "combat knife" though, since in combat your gun is probably going to be a lot scarier than the blade you have attached to your plate carrier and folders just flat out aren't as strong or reliable, so anyone who is carrying a folder just don't worry about it. (and thats basically all of us) Then again combat knives also aren't nearly as big and rambo-ish as everyone seems to think they are either so......

Yup go ahead, flame the living f*ck out of me for saying that combat knives probably shouldn't be folding (certainly not if serious abuse is planned) and aren't of epic proportions. At the end of the day though it comes down to how big/how much do you want to carry/do you need, and do you want to add a potential mode of failure (a folding mechanism) into something which could have been utterly reliable as one piece?
 
OrdnanceBubbaUSMC said:
Not sure lol I'm going with the flow where Crucible recommends it suitable for "bigger blades", to me that is 7in+ in size. Is CRK the only ones to try it? I am remembering the Noss shenanigans with the Green Beret.

For me it is hard to imagine S30V being tougher than average at any size based off of users reporting chipping for over a decade. I noticed it once about 9 years ago before I paid attention to anybody else mentioning it.
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you have to be careful what you read online. Once one thing has been said a certain amount of times, thousands of people will repeat it without having a clue. Or they will say it based on two horribly unscientific data pools.

Maybe a guy has used thick, carbon steel knives with obtuse edge geometry his whole life, then, his first stainless steel is a super thin ground ffg knife.... He jumps on the forum and starts saying how weak stainless is, then people repeat what he said and use his horrible example as their own on other message boards, etc. Even though the main difference was in the geometry of the knife, not the steel.

s30v wouldn't be my choice in a large fixed blade, but not for any reason like brittleness. And I believe these makers know enough about their steel, heat treat, and blade grind to keep using this steel instead of others. There are always trade offs in steel, and this one might not be right for your application, but to label the steel on the whole as being to brittle seems to be going against reality IMO. It is one of the most popular steels for 3-4" blades, jumping up to 7 or 8" isn't going to be making a huge difference.
 
hunterseeker5 said:
Yup go ahead, flame the living f*ck out of me for saying that combat knives probably shouldn't be folding
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Did anyone here say that combat knives should be folding? I think you're digging a little too deep into this or just looking for an argument. Probably the later.
 
Brittle isn't the word for it, but S30V will break at a lower impact force than a whole bunch of other steels. Since folders aren't as tough as fixed blades, and folders aren't swung with the force of larger fixed blades, and folders don't experience the impacts of larger fixed blades, then basically S30V is fine for folders or comparable fixed blades. S30V may also be fine for larger blades than that, but it depends on the use. It doesn't matter how big your knife is until you try to do certain things. It also doesn't matter how tough your steel is, until you try to do those same things. If you don't do those things, then it doesn't matter if it is a ceramic blade. An example would be a Kyocera sashimi knife - 8 inches long and made of ceramic. Plenty long enough, but don't go prying or batoning, just cut thin slices of fish.

Combat knives maybe shouldn't be folding, but plenty are marketed as such.
 
Could just be catering to biggest market, people who buy them to use gently and sparingly :)

Most of the knives associated as combat knives add a pound or more weight and are better designed for camping duty - it's the dig a sleeping hole in the field mentality.
 
I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think it is often exaggerated how weak or brittle it might be compared to others. Sure, that difference is there, but I think for most applications it's not a big deal.

Look how thinly ground this knife is, coping through some very hard wood before he got any micro chipping. Now imagine it had a more common, thick saber grind like on more production models.

Just food for thought
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5bO64g9sCU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
goodeyesniper said:
you have to be careful what you read online. Once one thing has been said a certain amount of times, thousands of people will repeat it without having a clue. Or they will say it based on two horribly unscientific data pools.
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This is very true. Its happened with more than one new steel, only to be proven wrong in the long run.
I've seen it happen here on BF by someone with an agenda against a company, and then it spreads like a wildfire.
Though the internet age is great, this is one downside of it.
 
hunterseeker5 said:
Direct quote from Cliff Stamp:
"The worse case example of this was Crucible pushing impact toughness based on transverse testing which showed for example S30V being five times as tough as ATS-34/440C. Makers jumped on this and started pushing it and people walked away thinking that a S30V knife was five times as tough as a 440C knife - but this is nonsense because no one makes knives with the grain running from spine to edge."


Never believe someone else's "scientific" report unless its PEER REVIEWED, you personally understand all the "big words" used, and preferably they're not trying to sell you anything.
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So, I think I get that you are saying we are supposed to listen to Mr Stamp about these steels, and not what Crucible who is trying to sell the steel says. Cool. That advice make sense.

So I take it that quote from Cliff Stamp was taken from a peer reviewed academic paper of his, yes?
 
As long as, as the title suggests, we are discussing mostly folders and fixed "jack of all trades" knives, S30V/S35VN are my personal favorite steels. Nothing I've used so far blends the aspects of all blade steels so well for me. Edge holding, sharpen ease, and yes, toughness. It's also pretty dang stainless which I prefer. Sure, I've used steels that sacrifice one of the aspects for others but I've never found them completely worthwhile in comparison.

For a chopper or hatchet/hawk, that is, not a jack of all trades cutting instrument, why not choose a steel designed completely/mostly for high impact? For a jack of all trades knife I want a jack of all trades steel & S30V/S35VN are near perfect.
 
marcinek said:
So, I think I get that you are saying we are supposed to listen to Mr Stamp about these steels, and not what Crucible who is trying to sell the steel says. Cool. That advice make sense.

So I take it that quote from Cliff Stamp was taken from a peer reviewed academic paper of his, yes?
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You're missing the entire point here. He is not trying to tell you to listen to Cliff over Crucible. The main point is that Crucible has posted specifications for S30V and compared them to two other steels, showing that S30V is tougher on one axis than the other two. The point Cliff was making is that while S30V is tougher along one axis, when it comes to making knives, that axis has no bearing on the edge performance of the steel. This is NOT a question of who to believe. This is a question of whether or not the enhanced toughness of S30V has an effect on the edge performance of the knives, and the answer is that it doesn't.
 
marcinek said:
I don't care. Once again, all I am asking is who you are telling us to believe. Crucible or Cliff Stamp.
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You best be trolling. he's not saying either one is wrong. He's saying the end customer and knife reviewers can't read and misinterpret what crucible's data sheets mean.
 
Steel is a raw material, not a finished product. Don't make blanket assumptions about a raw material because of the way a maker finished a product.
 
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