Strider / Hinderer / Other "hard-use" mid-techs: Why S30V/S35VN?

Mike Stewart, of Bark River knives, said on his forum that the S35vn solved the chipping issues people were having with S30V and seemed very happy with it, calling it "...as close to A2 as stainless can get" or something similar.

I have a few very nice knives in S35VN that I'm hesitant to really wail on due to their high cost. I decided to buy a knife, made from S35VN, that I could enjoy thoroughly testing (comfortable handle, convex edge, etc.). My S35VN Bravo 1 should be here today. If, during normal camping use, anything goes wrong with the knife (all I'm really worried about is the edge) I can send it back to be fixed.

I'll be posting a review in the Outdoor Equipment section Sunday...
 
Cliff Stamp, Noss, and Mike Stewarts opinions brought up in the same thread:D
I put zero stock into what any of them have to say.
 
marcinek said:
So...you are saying don't believe Crucible's "scientific" report....believe Cliff Stamp's "scientific" report?!? :confused:
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crucible company is a company , and make money from those products .
some date from the company are bullshits .

s30V is not a tough steel , compare to those carbon steel , s30v is brittle.
 
Ankerson said:
I don't have any issues with S30V.....

Long term impressions here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Term-Impressions-of-the-Military-in-CPM-S30V
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the way you test knives is just a cutting .
it is not a good way to test toughness.man.

impact is a way to test toughness , i mean long term batoning .

i am here do not wanna say s30v is a bad steel for making knives , what i want to say is that s30v is not a good choice for making hard use knives , such as , chopper or throwing knife.

S30V more suit for tender use on the folding or small fix blades.
 
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Marcinek :) Correct me if I am wrong, but I think once again you are arguing just because you enjoy it?

marcinek said:
So, I think I get that you are saying we are supposed to listen to Mr Stamp about these steels, and not what Crucible who is trying to sell the steel says. Cool. That advice make sense.
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According to you it's mucho better to listen to used cars salesman than to read reviews about the same car he's trying to push... You've never seen misrepresented, exaggerated or manipulated data to "help" sales? Really?

marcinek said:
So I take it that quote from Cliff Stamp was taken from a peer reviewed academic paper of his, yes?
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And Crucible statement which is worded so that average Joe needs to look up five things in vocabulary and is more likely to believe S30V knife is 5 times tougher than few other popular alloys is beyond questioning for you?

I know, for quite a few people around here it's better to break 5 knives than to read anything Cliff Stamp said, but still, Cricible or any other steelmaker's statements shouldn't be beyond questioning, common sense, sortta..
 
Gator97 said:
Marcinek :) Correct me if I am wrong, but I think once again you are arguing just because you enjoy it?
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Yes and no. I just don't know why if someone implies that Cliff Stamp is the more credible source here...they just don't come out and say so. What's with all the handwaving and implication? Just come out and say it. We are trying to share opinions here.

And if one is going to shout PEER REVIEW, and how Crucible lacks it, while quoting Cliff Stamp...then tell us how Cliff Stamp has it.

I didn't bring the guy up, I have no real opinion of Stamp (and maybe others don't also), and I didn't think it was crazy or trolling or flaming to ask the guy who did bring him up why I should have one one way or another.
 
dingy said:
the way you test knives is just a cutting .
it is not a good way to test toughness.man.

impact is a way to test toughness , i mean long term batoning .

i am here do not wanna say s30v is a bad steel for making knives , what i want to say is that s30v is not a good choice for making hard use knives , such as , chopper or throwing knife.

S30V more suit for tender use on the folding or small fix blades.
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How tough does it really have to be for folders and hunting knives, what we usually see it used in?

It's more than tough enough for those types of uses, and it holds an edge to boot.

Cutting..... Well that's what knives are supposed to be used for right?

I put a lot of pressure on those blades when I run my full battery of tests...
 
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Comeuppance said:
Don't get me wrong, S30V and S35VN are fine steels, but I don't see why so many manufacturers use them in large beefy folders. Both of those steels have great wear resistance, but they're so brittle! If you're going to make a $400+ knife, why not use 204P, Elmax, CPM 3V, Z-Wear, 110V, etc - steels that are tough as well as wear-resistant. I know several of them make models using some of the steels I listed, but it seems the fast majority of these otherwise rock-solid knives use paradoxically fragile steels. For that matter, many of them use 154CM, which is a perfectly decent steel, but can be readily found in folders 1/4 to 1/8 the price.

It's like this: Why would I buy an actual Hinderer for $600-800 when an 0561 has Elmax, similar handle materials, and extremely good build tolerances?

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to insult any of the manufacturers listed. I'm genuinely curious as to why they use those steels. It doesn't make sense to me.
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I think the simple answer is that time = money. Mr. Hinderer and other makers with small shops don't have a large volume output. Changing the steel used will require an investment of time for training and testing, as well as money, as well as time spent not working on making knives that people already want. If S30V and S35VN are working just fine without people breaking the knives in half all the time, I imagine they're deemed "tough enough" and as such Mr. Hinderer has no need to change what he's doing. To me it seems like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Of course I don't know his thoughts or his motivations, I can only speculate as to why he hasn't changed steels. I imagine the answer is simply because there's no need to.

ZT has much higher production numbers than Hinderer Knives. ZT is a division of one of the larger knifemaking companies in the US. There are resources there for R&D, etc.
 
marcinek said:
And if one is going to shout PEER REVIEW, and how Crucible lacks it, while quoting Cliff Stamp...then tell us how Cliff Stamp has it.
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IMHO you are going from the wrong angle about it. CS is the independent reviewer in this case, and Crucible is the one who has the product to sell, with vested interest.

Although the longitudinal toughness for all three of these grades
is about 25-28 ft. lbs., the transverse toughness of CPM S30V is
four times greater than that of 440C or 154CM. These higher
transverse toughness results indicate that CPM S30V is much
more resistant to chipping and breaking in applications which
may encounter side loading. In knifemaking, its higher transverse
toughness makes CPM S30V especially good for bigger blades
After reading this part, and based on your own experience and reading BF... Does it really matter who's name was brought up to question this claim? "Especially good for big blades"? Funny, in practice I see S30V especially in small folders, not big blades. My point is, you have a lot more questions about why CS, who's reviewing CS, etc, instead of questioning that PDF from Crucible.

marcinek said:
I didn't bring the guy up, I have no real opinion of Stamp (and maybe others don't also)...
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No you didn't :) But sure as hell, you are not willing to go past that name and take a look or question the statement presented by Crucible. I am not saying it is a lie, but as it is worded, I have an impression it's designed to trick readers into believing few things that aren't exactly there.

BTW, bigger blades can be interpreted as fillet or chef's knives only, on the other hand, majority of the readers will interpret bigger blades as something that they can chop, pry etc.
 
Gator97 said:
BTW, bigger blades can be interpreted as fillet or chef's knives only, on the other hand, majority of the readers will interpret bigger blades as something that they can chop, pry etc.
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I think that's a lot of it right there. :thumbup:

The side loading comment is the key I believe in that they aren't talking about impact here, but then some just look right past things like that and compression strength when talking about steels....
 
Gator97 said:
But sure as hell, you are not willing to go past that name and take a look or question the statement presented by Crucible. I am not saying it is a lie, but as it is worded, I have an impression it's designed to trick readers into believing few things that aren't exactly there.
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Sure, there is reason to be skeptical of Crucible's claims. All I was asking for was a reason not to be equally skeptical about the content of Stamp's quote.

I'm not part of the vast anti-Stampite conspiracy that some (not you) think is out there. :)
 
Marcinek, if you are willing to question both sides, that's just great, I didn't get that impression ;)

Ankerson said:
I think that's a lot of it right there. :thumbup:

The side loading comment is the key I believe in that they aren't talking about impact here, but then some just look right past things like that and compression strength when talking about steels....
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Exactly... Sadly, I think it was designed to do just that. Dunno why. S30V is quite good on its own, and HTed and USED properly.
Take Shun kitchen knives for example, they do warn users in twenty different places that this knives are hard steel, thin edges and should be used accordingly, despite of all the warnings, they get bunch of complaints about chipping which is most often the result of using those knives like entry level western kitchen knives, banging on the granite tops, bones etc...
Now, you have a statement from Crucible like that, and what should I think their goal was...
 
Gator97 said:
Marcinek, if you are willing to question both sides, that's just great, I didn't get that impression ;)
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Oh my yes...I'll argue with just about anybody. Especially somebody who bursts in claiming he's "...sick to death of this ********."

Just defending the honor of my fellow BF members!
guerrero2xc.gif
 
Gator97 said:
Marcinek, if you are willing to question both sides, that's just great, I didn't get that impression ;)


Exactly... Sadly, I think it was designed to do just that. Dunno why. S30V is quite good on its own, and HTed and USED properly.
Take Shun kitchen knives for example, they do warn users in twenty different places that this knives are hard steel, thin edges and should be used accordingly, despite of all the warnings, they get bunch of complaints about chipping which is most often the result of using those knives like entry level western kitchen knives, banging on the granite tops, bones etc...
Now, you have a statement from Crucible like that, and what should I think their goal was...
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That and I think we should point out that impact testing isn't the one and only holy grail of steel testing and or performance.

We aren't talking about jackhammer bits here, we are talking about knife blades that in the end have to both hold an edge and cut things.... And in that S30V when treated properly does those things very well.
 
exactly.

I also find no merit in "chopper" style knives whatsoever. I think it's a trendy niche that has been propped up by people who don't often really use their knives, but just like to "test" them. Machetes have their place, as do axes and hatchets, which obviously shouldn't be made from something like s30v, but a properly built and USED s30v larger camp type knife should perform pretty admirably.

But then again, I don't go camping to skip around flailing my knife around into every tree I see. If you can't survive a camping trip without having to use a small camp knife to fell a tree and baton through a cubic yard of lumber, you might want to start working on your knowledge and skills first.
 
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