stubborn, pretentious, true to oneself, or???

NickWheeler

NickWheeler

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
Messages
9,437
I'm not exactly sure what this post is, so I'll just run with it.

It actually looks like I will be finishing a couple of my oldest orders this week or next, so I have gotten in touch with one of the fellows that is just behind them on the list.

He had sent me a pattern he liked, I drew a sketch of it looking more like my work, and he volleyed some changes he liked. This has all been a healthy exchange.

Now I replied to his thoughts of changes and know how I FEEL about what I said, but am curious how some of you would feel about it if you got something like this from a maker who's list you are on, or even if this just came up in conversation at a show, or whatever :)

And this is CERTAINLY NOT just to single myself out, but just the general idea of a custom knife.

I'm leaving his name out of this on purpose, if he wants to raise his hand that's totally his call :)

So here's what I said.... THOUGHTS????

By the way, my skin is thick enough for you to be honest.




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Thanks for the message my friend.

Glad you like W2, I've liked it since even before it was cool to like it, lol. I was looking through several old knife books about 10 years ago and found all these references to W2. I asked an older smith why it wasn't seen in use anymore, and he told me because it wasn't made any more. Which was true, for the most part. I found some old surplus at Tremblay steel and ordered 1,000 pounds of it. That just happens to be the same place Don Hanson later bought a shit load of it from and started reselling it. :)

I'm not real familiar with Tad, other than a campy-type knife I saw of his on the forum that was way gorgeous. Very Jason Knight-ish.

I'm open to changes/alterations on the design... the hang-up being that it's gotta look like a Wheeler knife.

This can sound pretentious I suppose, but let me explain. I know in a perfect world a custom knife would be totally executed to the customer's wish in every detail.

The problem is, as a maker you learn how to do certain things in a way that works for you, and that is what ultimately shapes your "style." If you have one...which you will after at least a few years.

Now this could sound like artist mumbo jumbo, and I suppose in a way it is... but the pivotal point in my life that pushed the following thoughts was just a couple years ago. I was in a room full of guys and we were being shown a custom knife by a somewhat local maker. It was nice, but there were a handful of things I would have done different and didn't like. The knife's owner had several things he didn't care for, but it was a custom knife made to the specs of a friend of his that had ordered it for him.

All of the guys in the room agreed that the knife was nice, but could be nicer.

The odd part of this is that I know the maker, and the knife did not look like what he normally makes... quite a bit different actually.

Now I KNOW that most of his knives are not like that, but that room full of guys now only knows his work as what that one single knife represents..... decent, but not amazing.

I later talked to the maker, and he told me he wasn't super hot about the design, but it was done to his customer's request.

It was at that moment that I realized how easily one knife can misrepresent your entire presence as a knife maker, and I need to look at every single knife I make as though it will be THE ONLY CUSTOM knife of mine that many people will ever see. So it better represent me... both in design and execution.

Now am I saying I hate the changes you did and think it would ruin me as a maker?

NOPE!!! :)

Am I totally in love with the changes as a whole? Not 100%.... LOL :D

I actually prefer a dropped edge from a functional and aesthetic standpoint (not to mention it's a natural occurrence from forging close to shape as I do). I like how it places the edge, the geometry it creates with the handle width, I think it's easier to sharpen, and looks cool.

Am I not even willing to think about doing it without a dropped edge? No... lol

The handle changes are just fine, I actually got the pinky/ring finger recess a bit fat on the drawing anyway, so the deeper contour is more better anyway. I'm not real experienced in the raised area on top of the handle, but am pretty sure I can deal with it (I almost said "I can handle it" but realized that would be the most ridiculous pun of the week! ;) ).




So after all that blabbering, my point is I'm thinking about what you changed and thinking about how I can make it what you and I both want.

IF you think I'm being a ridiculous artsy asshole, I can understand and we count this one as off, but that's not what I'd prefer to do. I would like you to have one of my knives. Because I know you will dig it, and after seeing how excited you get about your knives and the connection you form with them, that it would just plain be cool.

Anyway, this is probably pretty deep (whether in some type of philosophical or bull-SHIT way ;) ) but it's all from my gut/heart.

It could seem "cold" as I've REALLY REALLY REALLY been trying to deal with my ADD lately and it's pushing me to be not only rational and matter of fact, but mainly it's pushing me to do what I'm good at. Making knives the way I have grown to make them, is what I'm good at relative to other things I do. (without any arrogance that may seem to imply) LOL

Okay, that's enough crap from me for now! :D

I'm totally open to handle material ideas * * * *. I think a nice stabilized wood would be cool and have a nice feel...


Okay, off to the shop! :)

Later bud :)
-Nick-
 
seems 100% legit to me. There are workmen and there are artisans. If you want something made 100% to your own spec, you find a shop that will do it. But if you contact an artisan, they have generally developed their own style and so presumably you are going to them b/c of their style. You have certainly developed your own recognizable style.

If someone asks a maker to make a knife that's not their style, I feel that it's an entirely acceptable response to say "your design isn't really the sort of style I'm most comfortable with, you might get a product that best realizes your vision by checking with [suggest other potential makers with a style more similar to the one being requested]."

I don't see someone sensibly asking Don Hanson to make a Strider-type folder, or asking Jens Anso to make a Bose-style slipjoint. If someone has developed their own style it doesn't make sense to ask them to make something completely different. Because, as you noted, they probably won't do the best job of design, and then no one is happy!
 
In my opinion, a maker has to be true to his/her own vision. Working with the customer is fine if that is the way the maker wants to do it, but in the end the maker has to feel as happy about having made the knife as the customer does about owning it.

There are makers that are fine with producing knives based on their customers designs. The ones that I have make me knives are the ones that have developed a style that pleases me. If I were to see a makers knives and they were a hodgepodge of designs that showed no recognizable style, I wouldn't be interested.
 
Nick, its great to hear your in the shop and working on knives. I think with such low production and the fact that your doing this, its understandable that you want to really FEEL the knife your making. You also probably spent alot of time thinking about knives (your likes, dislikes) and your excited to work. I haven't spoken with you in a while so I don't know whats been going on with your life in the past year but you sound enthusiastic about your design and work and thats awesome.

Its hard to give my opinion though, with out knowing details.
 
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I believe it's important for a maker to keep an open mind and to reasonably work with a collector to reach a point where both are comfortable with a design. Sometimes they will be successful sometimes they will not.

The maker has to be careful IMO though as the collector can easily disassociate himself with what he latter realizes after becoming more educated is a bad design by selling the knife or giving it away. It's not so easy for the maker to disassociate himself with it. They always have a way of turning up.
 
I'm so tickled that you're finishing a couple knives that I don't know what to do with myself. :p

I find nothing objectionable in what you communicated. Communication is the key to successful custom orders. You need to find a point where you are both happy with the project - and the earlier the better.

Roger
 
You think too much. And, you know that. :)

Of course you're right. And the client probably doesn't need as much explanation. Tai Goo and Don Hanson both looked at some design implementations I wished and simply said "No." Then they sketched out their own vision. The ball was back in my court, and I conceded willingly.

Look up the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. You're stalling on #2.

Now, if your production output is, say, one knife every year and a half, then one knife really does impact your 'presence'. The cure is to bang out 20 knives and that one dud will be lost among the stars.... I'm just sayin'.

I know you're close on mine. I hope you are enjoying (and learning?) from the process. I enjoy your posts, Nick.

Be well,

Coop
 
your client should be glad to even receive such a long and well thought out email on the subject, and I'm sure he appreciates your frankness, and that you respect and trust him enough to be honest with him and yourself;):D

'To thine own self be true'. Words to live by!:thumbup:
 
here they are;

The first is Nick's original design, interpreted from my plywood design;

lorien1.jpg


And here are the changes I made to it;

limber.jpg


I think this thread makes more sense with the pictures, and it is also a pretty fundamental topic.

I'm glad Nick brought it up:thumbup:
 
I agree with Don. I also think Nicks handle is more well rounded and if you get sick of your odd shape sometime or change your mind, Nicks is more universal.
 
Thanks for the replies guys :)

I kind'a figured the main theme would be "shut up and finish something" ;) :D

Lorien, thanks for posting those pics, but where did you get them??? ;)

Coop, I am VERY excited about your knife! :)
 
nick...i have had makers tell me the same exact thing....don't sweat it....you have a name and reputation to protect thru the knives u make....EVERYONE with your name on it represents you as a maker....if people don't wanna respect that then no knife for them....ryan
 
nick, you have nothing to reproach yourself for, except maybe that you are too diplomatic! :D

the following is a bit off topic, but as we have pictures now...

lorien, i know that you have a thick skin and like your designs being discussed. so here i go...

my advice is to follow nicks first sketch. that design works. there's a set of tasks i think this design is perfect for. and it's got flow.

maybe you have good reasons to suggest some major changes, but (i am talking about your second design): handle butt is limp, not enough flare. the "beck" may help to have a secure grip, but it looks, well, limp.

the bump on the upper side of the guard interrupts the line from the handle to the spine. this seems to be some kind of a camp knife, not a fighting knife, so there's no need for this reduced double guard.

like don said: handle drop kills the flow

why no choil? you won't need this knife for cleaning deer. without choil the blade is too narrow at the ricasso. but as you like the blade as wide near the tip as nick suggests, you need a more pronounced curve of the edge from ricasso to tip. that produces a second flow killer in the middle of the blade. looks a bit like a reversed kukri.

to avoid unnecessary e-mail traffic, misunderstandings and trouble i like to keep it simple, about this: "hi nick, blah blah etc., a camp knife used for chopping and different chores around the camp site, blade 10" with a raised swedge, might look a bit fikesish, walnut or DI handle. i prefer simple carbon steels like 1095, w2 or O1, hardening line must not be visible."

i am pretty sure such a knife would look very similar to the one nick designed, and heck, i'd be SO happy with it!

i hope i wasn't too rude. by the way i like your enthusiastic posts very much!

best regards,
hans
 
Nick,

I have trouble imagining that ANYBODY has been on your "list" longer than yours truly.

Peter
 
Lorien's handle design is weird.... Lorien's handle design works. I have a golok he modified the handle to a similar shape. Looks weird, kinda feels weird until you start chopping.

I understand not wanting a knife you're not comfortable with being out there. There's something kinda of uncomfortable about talking to another maker and going "Jeeeezzz, what's up with this?" Yeah, a guy ordered it and wouldn't change his mind. Either take the order or not, you gotta make it. I personally hate making knives I don't like/agree with.
 
Even though I didn't really ask for it:rolleyes:, I do really appreciate some of the feedback I've read here.

I've learned a fair amount here so far. Keep up the constructive feedback:thumbup:

The more a buyer can be specific about what they want the more the maker can aim toward a knife which meets their needs and/or desires.
 
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