Stun Guns....Again

K

Ken Cox

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I did a search and read all the negative things about stun guns, and in several cases from people I have known and respected through this forum for many years.

That said, their reports do not quite match my experience.

Many years ago, as part of a demonstration, I received two shocks from an early generation stun gun.
It didn't hurt, nor did it disable me, but in both instances it took my feet out from underneath me and put me on my butt.

I remember that the stun gun of those days had a long recovery time.
By long, I mean at least 30 seconds.
I also remember that the stun gun of yore did not arc, nor do anything, for that matter, unless touching a person.

This has me wondering if the technology, or the principles have changed.

OK, so why do I want to know about this?

I ride a bike 365 days a year, light and dark, good weather and bad weather.
I ride about 30 miles a day with half of that in a fairly remote rural area.
Periodically, I get hassled by young men in pickup trucks.
I ignore them and it has never amounted to anything, except last Halloween when one of them hit me in the back of the head as he drove past me.
I worry, though, that they might stop and decide to mess with me.
I wouldn't like that.

So now it gets a little more complicated.

For the past 23 years I have flown EMS helicopter and I have seen more mutilated bodies than I care to describe.
Although I have an Oregon Concealed Handgun License, a nice small handgun, and many years of handgun experience, I no longer have the will to mutilate another human being with a gun or a knife, even in self-defense.
I say this from the safety of my computer, but, nonetheless, it represents my sentiments at this time.

I recently purchased a 200 lumen Streamlight T3 flashlight, and it works better than I anticipated or hoped.
This puppy will definitely disorient an attacker for a few critical seconds.
I'll take that.

I have thought that the flashlight in conjunction with a stun gun (flashlight in one hand and stun gun in the other) might suffice to put an attitudinal young tough on his butt.
I'll take that.

So, I open this up for comments.
I like the Streetwise 900,000v Mini Stun Gun because of its low price, small size, and big numbers.

http://www.betterhomesecurity.com/_Small_Fry_900,000_Volt_Mini_Stun_Gun.php
 
I'll follow the thread to see what's what about stun guns...but I think that your flashlight+asp+handgun is merely prudent.

I've been harrassed around Sauvie's Island and elsewhere just for being a cyclist. If they insist on stopping I think they should assume some real risk.
 
Ebony said:
I've been harrassed around Sauvie's Island and elsewhere just for being a cyclist.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand.
Except, I don't understand why.
I get hassled about once a week, almost always from young men in their late teens or early twenties, and in pickup trucks.
Usually they yell at me or spit at me.
I don't get it.
 
Hey Ken,

Man, I feel you pain when it comes to dealing with those out there who think cyclists are targets or impediments to their forward progress.

I won’t comment on the stun gun because I don’t know enough about them to have any opinion other than an uninformed one.

But, what I can give you is my insight on riding and dealing with cars. I’ve lived and ridden out in the farmlands near Bakersfield and in the traffic of LA and have been riding/racing in San Jose for 17 years now. I think I have a good base of knowledge on the subject.

Yes, there have been a few times where I’ve had close calls and wish I had some form of weapon to defend myself. But, I can truly, honestly say that in every time, I had a chance to avoid the situation or get away from it before it got ugly. There were times when I didn’t, and it got ugly and I got lucky. But, I think carrying a weapon of any sort gives one a false sense of security that can get one into trouble. Bottom line is if you are in fear for your life, get out of the situation.

That being said, I do carry pepper spray in the event it’s a last resort. But, my advice is to suck it up (I know, it’s hard, but these idiots don’t know you) and live to ride another day.

You know, one thing I’ve observed with moron motorists is that those who intentionally mess with me while I’m on the bike, tend to want to scare me. It’s those who are totally clueless that nearly kill me and have no idea that they did so who are really dangerous. With those, it’s really hard to be mad at them for being stupid. I’d have a hard time spraying them with pepper spray. :)

One last thing, don’t get me wrong, I’d love to pound those who mess with me and my friends. It’s always funny when you get some idiot in a car who tries to threaten a bunch of us while he’s in car and we catch him at a stoplight and he realizes it’s a bunch of really fit, grown men, and not some teenage boys. In the vast majority of the time, the attitude of the driver changes very quickly. But, I’m a peaceful guy these days and it’s just not worth the hassle.

I think G Gordon Liddy (spelling) summed it up well. “It’s a pain in the ass killing a guy, you have all the paperwork to deal with.”

Keep the rubber side down, bro.
 
I have friends who have ridden bicycles around the MD 'burbs of the DC area. I don't recall them talking about ugly incidents with motorists. Not that they never happen...but I'm sure I would have heard about some sort of incident.

Perhaps the young men in the preceding post are acting out displaced aggression, and an anonymous cyclist on a lonely road is seen as a "safe" victim? :confused:
 
I was thinking of getting a stun gun. What can any of you recommend for self defense? I don't know that much about them.
 
Ken,
Just take the gun and point it at them, you dont have to fire it. Maybe you can talk some sense into them while you have their full attention.

People are just assholes, there is nothing to explain or to understand. I often think of the mothers of soldiers and others that get killed 'before their time' I think of all the joy that must have brought the mother and father (being a father to a 3 yrd old myself) and the seeming waste of it all and I can't understand anyone willing to go into a war. But, this is because I came from a pretty rounded family where I loved and respected my parents and wouldnt want to shame them with something idiotic. A lot of people just arn't like this though and its foolish to think it matters to them that you are in some respects a pacifict. They will look on that as a weakness and exploit it.

From your posts over the years, you and I may not have agreed on a lot of stuff in the political section, but I think of you as a guy I would like if we met. You seem like a great father and someone that has done a lot of good in his life, dont let some dipshits in a pick-up rob you and your family of an exemplary life.
 
I have a regular walk I take mostly along the main street through town. Maybe 45 minutes at most. It is commonplace for teenage boys to ride past in their cars, scream out the windows, curse, throw things like soda or lit cigarets.

One night they hit me in the face with a small stick or twig. THAT time I went to the police, and since then, the harassment has eased up -- now it's only vocal. I think the police spoke to a few of them, to spread the word.

I also find that if I walk facing traffic, I don't get harassed. Only when they drive up from behind me, and I can't see them coming. At night, when they've leaned out coming toward me, I've lit them up with my Surefire or Streamlight.

of course, I can't escape them. I am on foot, and crippled, and outnumbered. But given the flashlight I always carry, and the cane ... maybe I'm not really outnumbered. When we meet at the local convenience store, they walk by me expressionless.

I consider them contemptible cowards. It is a psychological type, or a phase they go through. But I won't let them approach me on foot. When I spoke to the police, I made it clear that I considered that behavior a deliberate and serious threat to my well-being, which I cannot tolerate.
 
Hi Ken...I tried to order it but they won't ship to N.Y. I will try and figure something out. Thx anyway.
 
Portland, Oregon Police had a very-much-alive suspect die on them minutes after being subdued with a Taser-brand direct contact stun gun (not the Taser gun with the projectile electrodes, as I understand the limited reports thus far published). Of course, the situation hasn't been throughly investigated yet and there are many disclarities. But, what does seem clear is that the man was running vigorously up and down a sidewalk and in and out of traffic on a street, very much alive one minute, and was dead just a few minutes later. The major thing which seemed to have happened to him in the interim was that he was shocked with this Taser device. It's not conclusive by any means and the cause of death hasn't been determined yet, but t's just yet another case on a growing pile that tends to indicate that les-than-lethal is not quite perfected yet.
 
Reading some of these posts really annoys me. It annoys me why good and decent people are harassed by cowards who have nothing else to do. I have always though about all the evil that is all around us. About 6 years ago my girlfriends nephew went into a bagel store about 9pm to get a coffee and a bagel. He walked in on a robbery in progress. Two guys had guns and shot him in the head killing him. From what I understand they were never caught. He was only 19 yrs. old.
 
Temper said:
Ken,
Just take the gun and point it at them, you dont have to fire it. Maybe you can talk some sense into them while you have their full attention.

People are just assholes, there is nothing to explain or to understand. I often think of the mothers of soldiers and others that get killed 'before their time' I think of all the joy that must have brought the mother and father (being a father to a 3 yrd old myself) and the seeming waste of it all and I can't understand anyone willing to go into a war. ..... shame them with something idiotic. A lot of people just arn't like this though and its foolish to think it matters to them that you are in some respects a pacifict. They will look on that as a weakness and exploit it.
Click to expand...

1. The doctrine for civilians is that you draw your gun with the intent to fire it. Using a gun with the intent to "get attention" is not sound martial philosophy. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you strongly on this point, and have been a CCW holder since 1991.

2. There are those who serve in the military, specifically the US military, and the many that do not have to, because of those who serve. There is nothing shameful or idiotic about joining the military. There are many of us that believe that it is an honorable thing to do.

3. Forcibly stopping, possibly permanantly, assholes from chronic assholia should be seen as a service and duty to society, not something to be eased into, or feared.

4. Temper, you are no pacifist. You may not want to serve in the military, but I think that you would dislocate a number of appendages if someone were stupid enough to mess with you.

5. Bicycling alone at night is something that I have done many times, I lived in Seattle in the CD, and rode home on Pike St to Madison to my dwelling. Woe be to the lout who thought it would be fun to mess with me. I AM a thug on a mountain bike. To have true inner peace is a thing of beauty, but I don't think that I would ever qualify for that.

If your activities are drawing unwanted attention, or risk to your safety, than give them up if you are unwilling to take responsibility for your own protection from your own genus. There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. Decide what you are, and take the appropriate course of action.

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
1. The doctrine for civilians is that you draw your gun with the intent to fire it. Using a gun with the intent to "get attention" is not sound martial philosophy. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you strongly on this point, and have been a CCW holder since 1991.

2. There are those who serve in the military, specifically the US military, and the many that do not have to, because of those who serve. There is nothing shameful or idiotic about joining the military. There are many of us that believe that it is an honorable thing to do.

3. Forcibly stopping, possibly permanantly, assholes from chronic assholia should be seen as a service and duty to society, not something to be eased into, or feared.

4. Temper, you are no pacifist. You may not want to serve in the military, but I think that you would dislocate a number of appendages if someone were stupid enough to mess with you.

5. Bicycling alone at night is something that I have done many times, I lived in Seattle in the CD, and rode home on Pike St to Madison to my dwelling. Woe be to the lout who thought it would be fun to mess with me. I AM a thug on a mountain bike. To have true inner peace is a thing of beauty, but I don't think that I would ever qualify for that.

If your activities are drawing unwanted attention, or risk to your safety, than give them up if you are unwilling to take responsibility for your own protection from your own genus. There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. Decide what you are, and take the appropriate course of action.

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson
Click to expand...

Steve :) I think in my rush to get this down I FUBAR'd it a little.

Now its later and the coffee has settled down, let me see if I can straighten it out. :o

1: CCW: I meant, if they stopped and got out of the car to confront you because they think you are weaker than they or there are more of them, just point it at them and tell them to puck off, no need to shoot them, yet :)

2: This wasnt what I meant. This is hard to articulate, but now that I am a father I can't understand people willingly going to fight in a conflict that has little to do with anything that does not really affect us. This is getting off topic but what I was trying to get to was that now that I am a father, I see things a lot differently than I did a few years ago and the thouht of losing him to mindlessness would be too much to bear.

3: Couldnt agree more, in fact there should be a toll free number to get an excavator to the said site of public service to dispose of them ASAP.

4: No kidding ;) Actually I was in the Army for a number of years.

Your closing paragraph is exactly what I am talking about. Ken is reluctant to inflict injury. I was saying that pointing a loaded firearm at said assholes is a good way to let them know you should not be messed with.

Damn, I should really re-read my posts before hitting the submit button :o
 
I can only imagine what bicyclists go through, I have been hassled many a time driving the MINIVAN by these 20's-something guys (why do they all have goatees?). On many occasions, the wife and toddlers are in the car.

I am an extremely polite drive and do not initiate these confrontations, and on the occasions that I cannot just ignore these folks, I try to calm the situation down.

I hold a CCW, and spend 2-5 hours/week on the range. I would not draw my weapon unless I plnnned to use it. Period.

I would only do so if I thought that a human's life was possibley endangered.

So that basically makes the weapon useless in the VAST majority of these situations. Same goes for a knife. Prior to this thread, I had not considered stun-guns. I will be quite interested to see this thread continue to find out what other forumites think.
 
The problem with a stun gun, as I see it, is that once you can use it, the punks are too darn close! It takes a second or two to drop the assailant, and by that time his buddies are all over you. If I was bike riding ( I can't - disabled) I would carry one of those LARGE cans of pepper spray with a fog nozzle designed for use on groups. Not foolproof, but I think more effective than the stun gun. CCW would be my next step to escalate. I hope neither of us has to find out if I'm right!
 
Don't assume a stun-gun is always non-leathal, and what would be your plan for dealing with multiple assailants?

My brother is a Federal LEO and carries a stun gun, but he's always got at least 2 more serious options should the situation escalate.

Pepper spray should be able to handle more than one assailant, depending on the wind and their sensitivity to it (might not work on drunk or drugged people).

Taking the handgun out of the equation makes options and choices more difficult. I'm sorry I don't have ready answers, only issues for you to consider. You might try hanging out on the "Tactical Scenerios" forum at www.warriortalk.com . I know, funny names, but Gabe Suarez is a top LEO trainer and has his head on straight about evasion and dealing with rapidly changing conditions.
 
Some very interesting points from Kohai999.
I will think about it.

I generally do not advocate threat displays with a knife or a handgun, and yet at times I think they work.
A judgement call, eh?
 
The problem with the combination of a high-intensity light and a stun gun is that you will be wasting those few seconds of flash-induced disorientation getting close enough to stun your assailant. You then need a good two seconds or more of contact for a stun gun to disable someone. In that amount of time, a young, fit teenager (or two or three) can conceivably take the stun gun away from you and start kicking your butt, or at the very least get clear of you. I'd say you should get yourself two 4 ounce Fox Labs pepper spray units with the stream-type nozzle. One is for practice, so you can become accustomed to the range and aim. The 4 oz unit emits a stream about 12 to 15 feet. If you feel really threatened, dazzle them with the light and follow it with a shot of pepper spray. Take them down while keeping your distance.
 
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