Stun Guns....Again

Kohai999 said:
1. The doctrine for civilians is that you draw your gun with the intent to fire it. Using a gun with the intent to "get attention" is not sound martial philosophy.
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It's not just doctrine or philosophy; in Oregon, it's law. Breaking concealment without intent to shoot is called brandishing and is actually a crime, CHL or not.

Now, this does NOT mean that if you draw, you have to fire. But it does mean that drawing is definitely not an option in a situation where firing would not be an option. Intent is always a difficult thing to define and prove or disprove. It is perfectly possible that a CHL holder may draw with intent to fire and the situation may change at that very moment. But, you do need a very good reason to draw.
 
Gollnick said:
...drawing is definitely not an option in a situation where firing would not be an option.
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A good guidline and clearly stated.
Thanks.
 
I believe in(and practice) escalation of force.

1. Yelling-Not threats, not screaming, but simple "BACK OFF" with your kiai, literally( "spirit yell"). It involves tensing the diaphragm and expelling air through the mouth, making a short, sharp sound. The exact sound will vary from person to person. It has three purposes:

(1) to demonstrate fighting spirit;
(2) to intimidate an opponent; and,
(3) to tense the chest and stomach muscles.

2. If pressed further, I am a proponent of pepper spray. Short of people VERY high on meth, or other serious grade intoxicants (PCP, LSD) it is very effective. I don't care how drunk you are, if you get a blast of pepper spray, or pepper foam, in high wind areas, you will not be able to see. I like the MK IV brand pepper spray, Mace brand foam, and Counter Assault pepper spray. I have experience with these, and they work very efficiently.

3. My last selection of non-lethal implements is the collapsible baton. ASP and Monadnock are the only two that I would consider. I felt that they were very good weapons before I started studying iaijutsu 6 years ago, and am even more pleased with the applications at this point. Indescriminate use of this item can be fatal, so please consider it in context. It is also illegal to own or carry this item in many jurisdictions.

The Taser is an expensive, non-contact required defensive weapon that you might consider. I don't know enough about it to recommend it one way or the other.

When I was in Seattle, I worked in a tattoo shop for 10 years, and also worked at two Lallapaloozas as the merch $$ courier. I carried handcuffs, pepper spray, two knives, a collapsible baton, and a handgun. I never had to draw any of these items, but it is better to be safe than sorry.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Disclaimer: I live in a crime-free Socialist paradise where carrying weapons is not necessary for law-abiding citizens. :rolleyes:

I was, however, an LEO for 30 years.

I feel that stun guns would make good torture implements when used on a bound, compliant victim.

If I were cycling in Mr. Cox's circumstances, I would wear a can of OC spray velcroed to my cycling jersey. I would have it in a place where my master hand could reach it even if I were prone or supine after a faceplant.

A while ago, fellow BFC forumite Planterz (IIRC) was assaulted while riding his bicycle. He found that - even though he carried a knife for SD - he was unable to reach it due to his position when his assailant put him on the ground.

Solve your interpersonal problems at the maximum range possible. That leaves time for the "Nike defence."

maximus otter
 
I was always taught that you never draw a firearm unless you are 100% ready and willing to use it in defense of your life or another's. Another thing to consider, in an urban situation at least, is your field of fire. If you have to stop an attacker with a firearm, where is the bullet going to end up after it perforates him, or if you miss him? The "Bear fogger" pepper spray units have a very large volume and range and should serve to ruin the day of any idiot deciding to bother you on your bicycle. I am not an expert on any of this by any means, but thought I would pass on my thoughts.
 
The following presupposes that you are indeed one of the good guys. If you are not, I hope you choke...or run into me in some dark alley...

For a stun gun to be effective it must be in contact with the...er...subject. That means that you're going to have to grab him with one hand and apply the stun gun with the other. That means you have to be close. If you can touch them, they can touch (punch, kick, STAB!) you!

Nope, stun guns just don't work very well. (I've taken a shot in the ribs from a 100,000V one and all it did was make me mad.) The cartridge type Taser seems to work fairly well, but more importantly it can be deployed from a distance. That is what I'd recommend, if you must use electricity.

The OC spray or stream, from Fox Labs, is the best of the pepper sprays that I've used. (By "used", I mean that I have been sprayed more times than I can remember with most of the stuff on the market. Fox introduced me to a whole new level of pain!)

But be advised that it is not instantly incapacitating. It can take up to several seconds for the subject to "feel the burn" and he can injure/kill you if you just squirt him and stand there waiting for him to fall. Use that time to employ what M. Otter so elegantly calls the "Nike Defense". Then call the cops and report that you were assaulted. If you just run off and the bad guy/s report YOU, guess who the cops will probably believe?

Ken Cox said:
...I no longer have the will to mutilate another human being with a gun or a knife, even in self-defense...
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I respect you for that statement and it is with true brotherly love for you that I say, "You must move to a monastery...NOW!" If you will not protect your own life then you must go to a place where you can pray, in safety, for those of us who will.

Bob
 
Regarding my statement to the effect that "...I no longer have the will to mutilate another human being with a gun or a knife, even in self-defense...," I must add the words of Mike Tyson: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit."

I no longer have the will to mutilate another human being with a knife or a gun, while sitting at the relative safety and comfort of my computer.

No one knows what he will do from situation to situation.
Nothing unfolds as we imagine it will.
I could just as easily cut off the guy's arm and beat him with the bloody end.
Still, I think if I plan a nonlethal defense, I have a better chance of actually doing that than I would if I start out with a lethal defense.

The several recommendations of pepper spray have me reassessing that possibility.
Do I understand correctly that the oil-based foams work best?
 
I've found that the foam is the slowest acting of the various types. Because it is foam it does not compromise the airway of the subject and the resulting contamination is confined to the subject and whatever he has actual physical contact with. Including raking it off his face and throwing it back at you! (Had that happen) Airborne contamination is minimal and its best application would be for use by hospital security guards.

Stream works well in high wind/outdoor applications. Shoot for the eyes/mouth.

The best is the spatter/spray, kind of a combination of fog and stream. It has a big cone-shaped pattern that has lots of volume with enough fine spray to seriously mess up the subjects breathing for 30-45 minutes.

A good blast from 6 feet or so should make the subjects ears flap like window shades. You have to get it in his eyes and lungs to get the maximum effect.

As of this minute Fox 5.3 is, IMO, the best you can get. I was seriously messed up for 45 minutes and still had burning skin several hours later. I wouldn't spray my ex-wife with this stuff...maybe!

Should you decide to go with spray, get some training, including taking a hit of the stuff yourself, under controlled conditions. If you ever have to use it, you will get some on you and you need to know how to react to it.
 
i would take a can of OC over a stun gun anyday, would also prefer a 5 "C" cell maglite, now tasers are another story.
 
I think we (except for Ken, who explicitly called it out) are ignoring the fact that there is report after report after report of people on serious self-defense forums, shocking themselves with all sorts of stun guns, and nearly-uniformly reporting that they have very little stopping power or are ineffective altogether without many-seconds-long contact. Ken, my advice is, if you do pick up that stun gun, try it out. I don't mean on yourself, maybe you're particularly susceptible. Get your son, who seems fit enough based on your descriptions, let him work himself into a bit of a rage, and then see if you can stop him from (say) touching your shoulder while you try to prevent him from doing that with the stun gun (but he's allowed to brush the contacts off his body if he's able to do so). I know what I'll be betting happens.

Agree with Sifu1A that a Taser is another story.

OC's record is spotty. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd carry OC before a stun gun, but wouldn't bet on it giving me anything but a temporary edge (or to scare off the particularly unmotivated).

Joe
 
In the interest of completeness, I should like to add to this thread that the man I mentioned earlier who died the other day minutes after being shocked by a Taser-brand stun gun in the hands of a Portland, Oregon police officer was found to have six times the generally-considered fatal concentration of cocaine in his system. He was basically walking-dead and the stun gun played no role in his death.

However, there is a small but slowly-growing body of deaths where the possible involvement of stun guns and Tasers is implicated. What this tells us is that the idea that these devices are perfectly safe and absolutely non-lethal is not supported. These devices should not be treated casually.
 
Every one of the so-called non-lethal weapons is going to be lethal to someone. OC could kill a person with asthma or other respiratory problems. A taser might screw up a pacemaker. A punch in the nose could cause a brain aneurysm to let go. A simple wrist come-along could shatter the bones of someone with OI, sending fragments to the heart. You can't account for all human conditions with these things, just the aptness of their use.

To get back to the original poster's problem, my guess would be that these kids hassling bicyclers generally get their nerve up only in groups of two or more. If you do get into a confrontation, what do you suppose the other kid is going to be doing while you are holding the stun gun to his buddy's neck for several seconds? (Right, kicking your butt.)

A good sized can of OC might not be that much more effective than the stun gun on some people, but it will at least let you drive multiple attackers away from you long enough to call the cops and/or get out of Dodge.
 
As Joe Talmadge points out, most of the people who have experience with modern stun guns describe them as ineffective or unreliable.
Joe has also wondered if I and some others might have personal susceptibility to stun guns.
In contrast to Joes speculation, I wonder if the technology has changed in the past 20 or 30 years.
I mean, what if they had more powerful stun guns back when they knocked me on my butt, and stopped using them for liability reasons?
Anyway, based on everyone's input I find myself emotionally drawn to a stun gun, and rationally drawn to Fox OC spray.
I'll probably do the pepper spray thing.
 
If you're convinced you need a stun gun, you might want to check out the stun batons on selfdefenseproducts.com. You could mount one on your bike like an air pump.
 
for all the effectivness a stun gun has ya might be beter off with the airpump at least if ya have a flat ...........................
 
Ken,

I ride a Police mountain bike most nights, on duty. I get a whole lot of " Hey, you ****ing biker" until they somehow manage to see the massive reflective POLICE decal on my shirt.

As a motorcyclist, I earnestly believe that those who ride in cars are jealous and unreasonably hostile towards those of us who are able to ride on two wheels.

Get their plates and call them into your friends at the Sheriff's Department on your cell phone. Every cop wants to keep his MEDEVAC pilot happy. The jerks will get stopped. Press charges when you need to, but the warning stops will result in some tickets for NPOI , open containers, or even arrests for DUI or warrants. Eventually, most of them will get the point.

Some might be looking for vegence then, however, and you might want a weapon then. I hope your new found pacifisim will fade at that point, as your son and daughter still need a dad.

I carry two handy items on my off duty bike. 1) My krypton cable and padlock combo bike lock which is like a manriki, but would be too violent for you. 2) a 9" delrin (spelling) rod cut off a snow track marker, mounted on my main post, out of the way, but very accessible for less leathal use on aggressive dogs or street goblins.

Nothing's going to help a lot if they decide to flyswat you with a Dodge Ram, but if they decide to just try to beat you down, I'd rather have a stick than stun gun. Incidently, how where you planning on carrying the stun gun? They are subjectable to damage from bad weather and sweat.

Ride Safe,
Jeff
 
I think the effect of stun guns back in the day was mostly psychological. If you tell someone the stun gun is gonna knock 'em down and they believe you, it will.

Example: When stun guns first hit here I was one of the few who didn't have one. One day when another officer and I were fueling up our units I took out my handcuffs and opened them all the way up and staged them on the first click. I palmed them and walked up behind the other officer, pinned him against the gas punp and polked my index finger into his ribs while squeezing the handcuffs. The ratcheting sound they made was loud and sounded just like the sparking of a stun gun. He flopped and hopped and in general exhibited all the reactions you might expect from the application of a stun gun. (No, he didn't get mad. He was relieved that it wasn't a stun gun and laughed it off. After all, I am known around here as a real joker, so I get away with stuff that would get the average guy a whuppin'.) After I got a guy to hit me in the ribs with his 100,000V gun, I figured they were bogus and never bought one. After a while their use sort of died out around here.

I haven't personally tested the Taser. They haven't caught on around here because OC has been so effective that there hasn't been a need to try them.

There is a small percentage of folks that OC has minimal effect on but it's still WAY more effective than the stun gun.
 
"Nothing's going to help a lot if they decide to flyswat you with a Dodge Ram"




Funny you mention that because just this Saturday my cycling club was on its usual ride in the Santa Cruz mountains. They were coming down Page Mill road when a black Dodge Ram truck came up on the tail of the group, and proceeded to run through the pack with total disregard to the lives of my friends. Everyone regrouped at the bottom of the hill except for one member. After about 20 minutes he came down the hill very slowly with several teammates who went back up looking for him. It seems the truck ran him off the road and he crashed and broke his collarbone.

Under no circumstances is behavior like this excusable and I simply do not understand how anyone can have so much inner rage as to cause harm to others like this. In this case, there was nothing anyone could do, this guy wanted to hurt us, and he succeeded. I really, really don’t understand. We have a very good description of the truck and a partial plate. The police have been somewhat helpful.
 
About 5-6 years ago I had the opportunity to talk to a U.S Army Ranger who was absolutely convinced that the baton style stun guns were the cats meow. He told me how they had tested it on 300+ people and every single one of them went down. I told him I just didn't believe that they were effective and he said OK try it on yourself. I put the probes on my ribcage and pulled the trigger. The muscles in the immediate area of the probes jumped a little and I felt a little pain, but that was it. I held it there till the batteries died and walked around the room. When I was done I had a couple small blisters and that was it. He looked at me and asked completely seriously if I was human!!

I've never believed in stun guns because electricity takes the shortest route between two points and the electrodes are only 1"-2" apart. That means its only going to effect an inch or so and maybe disrupt some of the muscles in the vicinity, but it' s certainly not going to slow me down. On the other hand, some people are deathly afraid of electricity and will flop around and fall down because that is what they are conditioned to do.

Just my .02

Ted W.
 
tedwca said:
I've never believed in stun guns because electricity takes the shortest route between two points and the electrodes are only 1"-2" apart. That means its only going to effect an inch or so and maybe disrupt some of the muscles in the vicinity, but it' s certainly not going to slow me down. On the other hand, some people are deathly afraid of electricity and will flop around and fall down because that is what they are conditioned to do.
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It is a myth that current follows the path of least resistance. When given several parallel paths, the current will take all paths in proportion to their resistance.

Furthermore, even though the majority of current may flow the one inch between the probes, it will impose a voltage upon nerves in that area which will go all the way to the brain.
 
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