Super steel opinions

The biggest test I have ever seen. Is cutting pig skin. Pig skins that came in boxes from a slaughter house. Cut into squares and rendered down for a product similar to the bag of, 'pork rinds' you can find at the store. With the homemade having a lot more lard still stuck to it.

There was three of us at the dining room table. Commercial kitchen knives. These section of pig skins were a couple feet long and about a foot wide. Starting with a sharp knife. It only took two skins before the knife would have to be sharpened. Not honed, sharpened.
 
Grasshopperglock said:
The biggest test I have ever seen. Is cutting pig skin. Pig skins that came in boxes from a slaughter house. Cut into squares and rendered down for a product similar to the bag of, 'pork rinds' you can find at the store. With the homemade having a lot more lard still stuck to it.

There was three of us at the dining room table. Commercial kitchen knives. These section of pig skins were a couple feet long and about a foot wide. Starting with a sharp knife. It only took two skins before the knife would have to be sharpened. Not honed, sharpened.
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Can't say I've ever cut pig skin. However like the other fellas was saying maybe it was the way I was holding the knife towards the cut? I think probably I felt that the super steel knives that I have were getting dull when they actually weren't?. When I used 420 HC when I felt it get dull a couple of swipes on ceramic and I kept on cutting. But the 20 CV I would have been sharpening all day instead of cutting. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong
 
Vlade said:
Can't say I've ever cut pig skin. However like the other fellas was saying maybe it was the way I was holding the knife towards the cut? I think probably I felt that the super steel knives that I have were getting dull when they actually weren't?. When I used 420 HC when I felt it get dull a couple of swipes on ceramic and I kept on cutting. But the 20 CV I would have been sharpening all day instead of cutting. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong
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There's sharp as in after a sharpening. Then there's a working edge. A middle time during the wear of the edge. That maintains a level of sharp.

Different steels take and hold a working edge. Different then each other.

I've used this comparison before but consider the razor you use to shave. At first, it's too sharp. You end up nicking yourself. Then as the blade wears. It's perfect. It'll shave hair but won't bite into the skin. Then as you continue to use it. All of the sudden, the working edge stops shaving hair. It's still sharp but the working edge has been worn past, the needed amount of sharpen to do it's purpose.

Same with kitchen knives. Some folks are terrified of a razor kitchen knife. But once it takes a working edge. Then they use it. Only stopping, after it gets, 'dull'. For which is subjective to the person using it.

The working edge of s20v will be different then 1095. However, to each their own. One person might prefer the working edge of 1095 over s20v. With both being the same level of, 'sharp'.
 
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Grasshopperglock said:
There's sharp as in after a sharpening. Then there's a working edge. A middle time during the wear of the edge. That maintains a level of sharp.

Different steels take and hold a working edge. Different then each other.

I've used this comparison before but consider the razor you use to shave. At first, it's too sharp. You end up nicking yourself. Then as the blade wears. It's perfect. It'll shave hair but won't bite into the skin. Then as you continue to use it. All of the sudden, the working edge stops shaving hair. It's still sharp but the working edge has been worn pass, the needed amount of sharpen to do it's purpose.

Same with kitchen knives. Some folks are terrified of a razor kitchen knife. But once it takes a working edge. Then they use it. Only stopping, after it gets, 'dull'. For which is subjective to the person using it.

The working edge of s20v will be different then 1095. However, to each their own. One person might prefer the working edge of 1095 over s20v. With both being the same level of, 'sharp'.
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Thank you for the explanation that makes perfect sense. I hadn't thought of it that way. However when it comes to facial hair you need a bush hog to shave me. Thank you for that information it was very helpful.
 
Vlade said:
I have come to the realization that having super steel is not all that. I have knives with 20 CV I have knives with magna cut and I have knives with ordinary 420 HC AUS8 AUS10a. 440c CtsBD1.

Curiosity killed the cat, I'm not disappointed I just have my own opinions that I would like to share. The first problem that I've encountered is sharpening the super steels are very hard. Even with diamond Stones they're very hard to get sharp. And then when you finally do eventually get them Sharp they do not hold up as advertised. Nowadays I'm looking for more budget-minded steel. When they do get dull you can sharpen them fairly easy. So what is your opinion on super steals or are they just hype. Some members here had worn me prior to my purchasing these steels. but I guess I was thick headed. In my usage they also dull just as fast as any other knife. PS I wasn't sure where to post this I was thinking of posting it in the embellishment forum but I'm sure someone will change it if need be. Thanks in advance fellas what is your take on super steels?
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1095 = great for most uses
3V = like it for the Bark River convex and strop-able to a razor finish
For kitchen knives Hitachi white core and 410 (Carter Cutlery)

If I had to go with ”super steel” for a pocket knife I’ve had good luck with S35VN. (I stay away from S30V - that I have found to be the worst. Takes a century to sharpen and rolls or dulls quickly by comparison.)

But - Yes, if the question is day to day use I like the three above - ok and don’t make that thing thicker than 1/8”. Somewhere around .09” for a tough outdoor knife. For kitchen .12 at the handle, tapering down quickly to .08 at the start of the blade spine, tapering down to .45 in the spine at the tip of a nakiri from Carter is my best kitchen knife. I have a paring knife that goes down to .025 from Zwilling/Kramer that is perfect as well.

Thicker than 1/8” is a hatchet, and you might as well buy one of those. The Hukari I have in .2” is about as thick as I would go. For some reason people keep going for thickness - Well a pry bar is .2, so why go thicker?

Also - yes I love my old Gerber LMF in I think 420 from the early 90’s for skinning. Fast sharpening after trimming piles of fat. I suspect the emphasis on super steels is from those that sell them, and to the crowds of people who collect and have deep pockets.
 
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Maxamet in a folder & 3V in a fixed blade is a great combo for any situation.
Learn to freehand sharpen and invest in a few DMT plates and diamond emulsion strops is my advice.
For a good start check out a few Michael Christy videos.
 
My experience with a dozen or so different steels accords pretty closely with Dr. Larrin Thomas's ratings:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/
I would rate some steels half a point higher or lower, but that is to be expected because of differences in manufacture.

In terms of edge retention, a difference of 1 point between two steels might not be clear to me before a few months of typical use. A difference of 3 points becomes evident in a few weeks. A difference of 4 or 5 points between, say Spyderco VG10 and S90V, is pretty obvious.

I don't have any super duper steels like Maxamet or Rex 121, but I have a lot of S90V, which I find easy to sharpen with diamond plates
 
My favorite is 154cm on a knife I used for years. Never sharpened from day one. When the knife was retired (omega spring snapped in half), it was still cutting everything I wanted. Without complaint.

It stayed, 'sharp' for quite some time. I once let someone use the knife and when they handed it back. They remarked how sharp it was. With my personal impression, their idea of sharp had to have been judged by something that was really dull. More dull then I'd personally use. But to them, it was everything they needed to form the opinion. It was, 'sharp'.
 
Nothing wrong with basic steels they have their place.

I would guess that your sharpening skills could use improving by the sounds of it or your diamond (plates?) need to be either cleaned properly or replaced. I find a light touch towards the finishing strokes and a fairly light touch overall should give you good results no matter what the steel is. Obviously the higher wear resistant the steel is the longer it will take, though that's a bit of a generalization.

IMO "super steels" are a luxury for most people. If you can competently sharpen them that helps. There have been many times where I've been glad I've been carrying certain steels because it's literally been the difference between not having to sharpen vs having to sharpen sometimes multiple times on a job or camping etc. Having said that the basic steels are very quick to bring back the edge, so I can totally understand both camps. There have also been many times where I have got through whatever cutting task with basic steels without having to sharpen at all as well. It's all good use what you like.
 
I think as metallurgy and heat treatment protocols have become more science and less art, we've seen manufacturers, especially custom makers who are able to squeeze the absolute most out of basic steels like 5160, 80CrV2, 1095, etc. It seems like we're seeing a resurgence in popularity of the low alloy carbon steel seeing as they're easier to get a good heat treat on, usually very tough and easy to get razor sharp without specialized equipment or perfect technique. I for one came into this hobby as a bit of a steel snob. Nowadays, especially for fixed blades, my snobbery is more down to how the steel is heat treated rather than exactly what steel is used with a few exceptions (I'll usually stay away from AUS8 and 8Cr13MoV or lower for instance).

No doubt well balanced super steels like CPM-3V, Magnacut and CruWear are excellent for knives but I still shy away from the likes of S90V, S110V, and M390 because I think they're way too brittle for the low edge angles I like to put on my knives to get as good cutting performance as possible out of them.
 
I dunno. Depends on the knife. Depends on what I am cutting.

Edge retention is affected more by edge geometry than by blade alloy. The reason Larrin Larrin 's edge retention charts are valid is that he and his associates specifically made blades for testing, all with the same ege geometry. I don't have that luxury, so a lot of my field experience is not going to have as much to do with blade alloy as with other parts of the knife design, particularly blade geometry.

In about 2000, Buck Knives published a study here on BF. They had used a CATRA machine, same as the one Larrin used, to identify the best blade geometry. Like Larrin, they made blades from different alloys with identical geometries. They showed that a 420HC blade would outperform a high end carbide containing alloy, if the 420HC had their new geometry and the carbide blade had their traditional geometry. And I might add that most knife makers still use that traditional blade geometry.

My rules of thumb for blade alloy are
> if I am making a lot of slicing cuts in synthetic materials, or if I were skinning a critter with thick dirty fur, a super alloy would generally be highly desirable. That type of cutting calls for abrasion resistance.
> If I am going to be doing mostly push cutting, the kind I might do when shaping wood, the shape does the cutting and the abrasion resistance of the steel is less important. So then a simple blade steel does just as well. Maybe better because it's likely tougher.

YMMV
 
knarfeng said:
I dunno. Depends on the knife. Depends on what I am cutting.

Edge retention is affected more by edge geometry than by blade alloy. The reason Larrin Larrin 's edge retention charts are valid is that he and his associates specifically made blades for testing, all with the same ege geometry. I don't have that luxury, so a lot of my field experience is not going to have as much to do with blade alloy as with other parts of the knife design, particularly blade geometry.

In about 2000, Buck Knives published a study here on BF. They had used a CATRA machine, same as the one Larrin used, to identify the best blade geometry. Like Larrin, they made blades from different alloys with identical geometries. They showed that a 420HC blade would outperform a high end carbide containing alloy, if the 420HC had their new geometry and the carbide blade had their traditional geometry. And I might add that most knife makers still use that traditional blade geometry.

My rules of thumb for blade alloy are
> if I am making a lot of slicing cuts in synthetic materials, or if I were skinning a critter with thick dirty fur, a super alloy would generally be highly desirable. That type of cutting calls for abrasion resistance.
> If I am going to be doing mostly push cutting, the kind I might do when shaping wood, the shape does the cutting and the abrasion resistance of the steel is less important. So then a simple blade steel does just as well. Maybe better because it's likely tougher.

YMMV
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Hmm - when I have had to cut through several deer(trimming the fat down included), maybe 4 in a row, I found that a softer steel that would sharpen faster beat out most of the super steels since the 1095 or 420 could be sharped super quick between deer, but the S30V, S35VN, 154CM, ATS34 and others while they held an edge longer, it was not sharp enough to trim fat efficiently.
 
droddy386 said:
Hmm - when I have had to cut through several deer(trimming the fat down included), maybe 4 in a row, I found that a softer steel that would sharpen faster beat out most of the super steels since the 1095 or 420 could be sharped super quick between deer, but the S30V, S35VN, 154CM, ATS34 and others while they held an edge longer, it was not sharp enough to trim fat efficiently.
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Fair enough. Your Mileage Varied. But you were trimming fat at the time, not slicing through the fur.
 
The Zieg said:
1095 is my favorite steel of all. CPM154 is my favorite stainless steel. I specifically do not like AUS8 as Cold Steel issued it (which is unfortunate as I'm drawn to getting an Espada XL in AUS10).

I need a keen edge in the morning and a quick touch up in the evening. Harder edges are better than soft, but I can live just fine with an 440C on a Buck 110.

I suspect the market is saturated with ordinary steel blades such as 1095 and 440 and any future success will be built on convincing the punters of their need to upgrade to the Next Big Thing. At 56 years old, I'm pretty settled and my knife buying moratorium is still intact at two years now. New steels just don't make me sit up and take notice.

Zieg
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Actually I find AUS 10A to be pretty good. I've got an Espada in that steel. It's actually pretty damn tough, no complaints on my end. I cut fruits off of my trees with it. It stays sharp for quite a long time
 
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When native Indians started trading with the Europeans, they upgraded to steel knives over obsidian and flint, and the steel material blew their minds. What is MagnaCut doing for the droves? Like a faster computer than the year's previous --- there will always be something else. I'm at the point where I'm perfectly happy with well treated 1095 and don't need 20CV or M390, used plenty of MagnaCut, it didn't make all other steels obsolete, just a newer thing
 
droddy386 said:
Hmm - when I have had to cut through several deer(trimming the fat down included), maybe 4 in a row, I found that a softer steel that would sharpen faster beat out most of the super steels since the 1095 or 420 could be sharped super quick between deer, but the S30V, S35VN, 154CM, ATS34 and others while they held an edge longer, it was not sharp enough to trim fat efficiently.
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I agree, freehand I can get 80CrV2 shaving sharp in minutes to the point the lightest pressure sends hairs flying and it will maintain that sharpness with very occasional honing/stropping. Meanwhile, I absolutely struggle to get anywhere near that level of sharpness with S45VN at 62 HRC with the same diamond plates even after an hour of sharpening and stropping. As a result I find myself EDC'ing a Winkler SD1 over my Sebenza 31 just because I can't get the Sebenza as sharp as I would like, even after (very carefully) sharpening on a belt sander out of desperation. What good is all that edge retention if I can't get it as sharp as I want in the first place? It's not like I'm cutting miles of cardboard either.
 
kafolarbear said:
I agree, freehand I can get 80CrV2 shaving sharp in minutes to the point the lightest pressure sends hairs flying and it will maintain that sharpness with very occasional honing/stropping. Meanwhile, I absolutely struggle to get anywhere near that level of sharpness with S45VN at 62 HRC with the same diamond plates even after an hour of sharpening and stropping. As a result I find myself EDC'ing a Winkler SD1 over my Sebenza 31 just because I can't get the Sebenza as sharp as I would like, even after (very carefully) sharpening on a belt sander out of desperation. What good is all that edge retention if I can't get it as sharp as I want in the first place? It's not like I'm cutting miles of cardboard either.
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Yeah - I’ve had good luck with 80CrV2 as well. Forgot about that one.
 
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