Super Steel

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - have the old steels quit cutting? Have they quit taking an edge? With this logic I should replace my pre-64 Winchesters (but I know better, two of them each killed deer this season). I should park any vehicle that doesn’t have the newest engine, but my older vehicles (not that old) still run fine. If a knife cuts what it is supposed to cut then the steel in the blade is irrelevant. OH
 
D2 is "superior" to 420HC?
How?
420HC is not as brittle, much easier to sharpen ... with or without diamond or SiC stones hones, takes a keener edge, that is "sharper" longer than any "super steel's" and D2's less keen edge. 425HC does not corrode - even after long exposure to saltwater, unlike D2 which WILL rust away to nothing.

My 425HC blades wiill take and hold a 10 degree per side/20 degree inclusive edge angle.
I've never had the edge chip or roll in "normal" to "heavy" use, such as cutting nylon and fiberglass reinforced belts and hoses, scraping headgaskets, cutting up to 2 guage multi strand wire, stripping romex insulation, trimming nylon and thin aluminum siding ...
My Buck standard production 420HC 110 peeled and got ready for the freezer three adult whitetail deer before it needed stropped. (NOT put to the stone - STROPPED to restore the working edge.)

420HC is superior for a "hard use" or hunting/fishing knife that MAY need sharpening in the field. A smooth river/stream/crick rock will do the trick if you don't have a proper stone along.
 
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You don't have to buy any steel you don't want, but I don't see Buck just putting a stop to useing what made them for only some new steel of any flavor. I would be shocked if they didn't have the old standbys for many years to come.
 
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I've talked to steel junkies for countless hours. It seems to me that 99% of their arguments are complete horsefeathers. Buck is experimenting all the time with floofy steels. If anyone was being honest about this, they'd tell you that they are making knives with exotic steels because they sell.

Buck's been making blades from 425CM steel for forty years. The change from 440C came about due to manufacturing considerations, not from any metallurgical rationale. They guarantee their knives for life. I'd bet they could make knives from old Yugos and still turn out a fine knife.
 
afishhunter said:
D2 is "superior" to 420HC?
How?
420HC is not as brittle, much easier to sharpen ... with or without diamond or SiC stones hones, takes a keener edge, that is "sharper" longer than any "super steel's" and D2's less keen edge. 425HC does not corrode - even after long exposure to saltwater, unlike D2 which WILL rust away to nothing.

My 425HC blades wiill take and hold a 10 degree per side/20 degree inclusive edge angle.
I've never had the edge chip or roll in "normal" to "heavy" use, such as cutting nylon and fiberglass reinforced belts and hoses, scraping headgaskets, cutting up to 2 guage multi strand wire, stripping romex insulation, trimming nylon and thin aluminum siding ...
My Buck 110 peeled and got ready for the freezer three adult whitetail deer before it needed stropped. (NOT put to the stone - STROPPED to restore the working edge.)

420HC is superior for a "hard use" or hunting/fishing knife that MAY need sharpening in the field. A smooth river/stream/crick rock will do the trick if you don't have a proper stone along.
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Not trying to start an argument here, but D2 (or any other steel that has been processed/heat treated correctly) is capable of getting just as sharp as 420HC if you are using a suitable abrasive and you are proficient enough. Some people find sharpening 420HC a lot easier than others which is one of the selling points of using a more basic steel with less abrasion resistance.

There is nothing wrong with either steel. Use what you feel is best for the particular job, but D2 will take a hair popping edge just as 420HC will and the edge will last considerably longer in most situations for a folder. YMMV obviously.
 
420 HC ROCKS! It's arguably the most corrosion resistant of stainless steels, and also by far the toughest of the typically somewhat brittle stainless steels.

I love the stuff, it's exactly what I want in an outdoor steel for those of us who actually use it in the outdoors. Also great in the kitchen FYI.
 
texpat said:
420 HC ROCKS! It's arguably the most corrosion resistant of stainless steels, and also by far the toughest of the typically somewhat brittle stainless steels.
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It's not though. There are quite a few stainless steels that are more corrosion resistant and/or just as tough. LC200N is just as good if not better in every way other than cost. Same with 14C28N to name two.

Not trying to rain on your parade, 420HC is fine. It's a great choice for toughness, corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening but mainly it's a good choice because it is cheap and easy for manufacturers to process and source on a large scale.
 
y'all hating on steels besides Bucks 440c, 425m, 420hc remind me of an old general on horseback long ago lookin at the plane overhead saying...wars will never be fought from the air.......

we all know today that air superiority matters on winning.....very soon if not already space superiority......and digital superiority as well....

don't forget at one time stainless was considered uninteresting and not needed for knives.....great read if ya haven't read it yet on stainless history

more modern.....440c was kinda the original super stainless and the premium ball bearing stainless steel when it came out...same with bg42 later on..which most of y'all seem to love also......

let's not get stuck in a change is always a bad thing routine.......if it was bad we'd still be in the bronze age.....
 
chalby said:
Not trying to start an argument here, but D2 (or any other steel that has been processed/heat treated correctly) is capable of getting just as sharp as 420HC if you are using a suitable abrasive and you are proficient enough. Some people find sharpening 420HC a lot easier than others which is one of the selling points of using a more basic steel with less abrasion resistance.

There is nothing wrong with either steel. Use what you feel is best for the particular job, but D2 will take a hair popping edge just as 420HC will and the edge will last considerably longer in most situations for a folder. YMMV obviously.
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In my experience, that is not true. It's possible that the heat treatments on the examples I have sharpened had larger grain and carbide size than for D2 that is really hard, but there is no way any of the D2 knives I have sharpened could or can sustain the formation of an edge as thin and sharp as anyone can easily get with 420HC. I spent a lot of hours trying and based on my results with other steels, I don't think it was a failure of my skills or equipment.
 
I don’t collect Bucks. You might say I collect my favorite Bucks (119, 104 and 110) in super steels (420HC, 20CV, S30V, 3V and MC) and love that they are all available, and with great heat treat.

Wouldn’t say no to a 110 automatic in MC or a 124 in 3V :)

Btw, wrt toughness and stainless fixed blades, BOS 420hc is a super steel :)
 
chalby said:
It's not though. There are quite a few stainless steels that are more corrosion resistant and/or just as tough. LC200N is just as good if not better in every way other than cost. Same with 14C28N to name two.

Not trying to rain on your parade, 420HC is fine. It's a great choice for toughness, corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening but mainly it's a good choice because it is cheap and easy for manufacturers to process and source on a large scale.
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Chart posted on this very forum from knifesteelnerds originally :

stainless-toughness-5-7-2021.jpg


When you include dollars into the equation, steels like 420HC and AUS8 have been outstanding values for me over the years. Not everyone has the money to afford super steels, and not everyone who does wants any.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love the steels that have come out of this renaissance of knife-making that we are are still enjoying. And now I can afford a few since we finally own our own home and have some breathing room financially.

But the me from 20 years ago would never have bought one, I needed the cheapest but best quality tools that would last under hard-use, sometimes that meant paying the money for Snap-on, sometimes Harbor Freight would suffice, and most often it was somewhere in the middle.
 
texpat said:
Don't get me wrong, I love the steels that have come out of this renaissance of knife-making that we are are still enjoying. And now I can afford a few since we finally own our own home and have some breathing room financially.

But the me from 20 years ago would never have bought one, I needed the cheapest but best quality tools that would last under hard-use, sometimes that meant paying the money for Snap-on, sometimes Harbor Freight would suffice, and most often it was somewhere in the middle.
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It's a shame that Snap-On dealers won't accept immortal souls in payment. It would probably be less costly in the long run to young mechanics than making those monthly payments.
 
texpat said:
Chart posted on this very forum from knifesteelnerds originally :

stainless-toughness-5-7-2021.jpg


When you include dollars into the equation, steels like 420HC and AUS8 have been outstanding values for me over the years. Not everyone has the money to afford super steels, and not everyone who does wants any.
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The values in that chart are from samples that have been heat treated optimally for edge retention. From knifesteelnerds:
However, one issue with these charts are that difference in toughness is that a linear scale for toughness is a bit misleading for visualizing practical toughness differences. If you look at the chart you may notice that at high toughness levels if you increase edge retention by only a relatively small amount you get very big drops in toughness
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420HC is very tough no doubt, but it is hardly "by far the toughest of the typically somewhat brittle stainless steels" as you stated. The two steels I mentioned are comparable for toughness.

I made the same point as you for the cost factor.
 
It is absolutely "By Far" when you look at that graph and and see how far it is above the 20 some steels at the bottom of the graph, a couple of outliers notwithstanding.

And the price point is not a small matter, especially these days. I have 119 specials in 420HC and in Magnacut, the Magnacut version cost me 4.5 times what the 420HC model did.

For people on a budget it's a very important consideration. The idea that Buck should drop 420HC in favor of nothing but much higher priced steels is more than a little bit absurd IMHO.

ETA: I'm sorry, Mrs. Texpat says I seem to have gotten a little argumentative and I trust her judgement on such things, perhaps I have overstated my case, standing down now.
 
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texpat said:
It is absolutely "By Far" when you look at that graph and and see how far it is above the 20 some steels at the bottom of the graph, a couple of outliers notwithstanding.

And the price point is not a small matter, especially these days. I have 119 specials in 420HC and in Magnacut, the Magnacut version cost me 4.5 times what the 420HC model did.

For people on a budget it's a very important consideration. The idea that Buck should drop 420HC in favor of nothing but much higher priced steels is more than a little bit absurd IMHO.
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OK, I agree 420HC is by far the toughest stainless steel compared to the stainless steels that don't have great toughness.

And yes, the price point and all of the costs involved in producing knives in 420HC are an important consideration for all involved.

But as to your original post: no it isn't the most corrosion resistant stainless steel, and no it isn't by far the toughest stainless steel(eg. AEB-L is more or less equal to it at a higher hardness in the chart you posted if you want to ignore the caveat that Larrin explained in his article).
 
jbmonkey said:
y'all hating on steels besides Bucks 440c, 425m, 420hc remind me of an old general on horseback long ago lookin at the plane overhead saying...wars will never be fought from the air.......

we all know today that air superiority matters on winning.....very soon if not already space superiority......and digital superiority as well....

don't forget at one time stainless was considered uninteresting and not needed for knives.....great read if ya haven't read it yet on stainless history

more modern.....440c was kinda the original super stainless and the premium ball bearing stainless steel when it came out...same with bg42 later on..which most of y'all seem to love also......

let's not get stuck in a change is always a bad thing routine.......if it was bad we'd still be in the bronze age.....
Click to expand...

I may be showing my age but, I remember when they first started making knives out of obsidian. We all said, "Flint has been working just fine for years. I don't see why we need to change."
 
DDDWho said:
As my 50 year collection of Buck knives gets obsoleted by super steel I’ve become disheartened. I’m not that keen on super steel mainly because of price and I’m not convinced it’s that much better. My 400 series steels have served me well. I’m not interested in more 420HC steel because I feel it’s going bye bye. My interest in Buck is waning. I refuse to pay for super steel and I’m bullheaded enough to find a new favorite brand. Go ahead, beat me up I’m ready.
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I don't follow this argument/thinking. Is it just me?

Zieg
 
Zornhau said:
I may be showing my age but, I remember when they first started making knives out of obsidian. We all said, "Flint has been working just fine for years. I don't see why we need to change."
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Yes, but I clearly remember my father, an engineer and quite the nerd, declaring to me in the early 70's that the Torx system for screwheads was clearly superior, and would replace all other types within 5 years. He later bought a Betamax along that same line of reasoning.
😆

We sometimes forget that "tradition" is often merely a well thought out solution for problems we no longer remember having.
 
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