Superior to a traditional full tang?

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St33L

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Dec 18, 2013
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Is a hollowed out, "3D" full tang superior to that of a traditional flat full tang for high abuse activities (e.g. heavy batoning)? That is, the full tang moves across the Z-axis along the curvature of the handle's ergonomics. Thus, instead of having a thickness equal to the knife blank it's much thicker.

I'd imagine a knife of this construction would have an encapsulated tang.
Also, the reason for its hollowing would be to reduce the weight while maintaining the same strength - I'm making a guess here that it would be similar to the function of a fuller or an I-beam in that you reduce the weight while maintaining practically the same amount of support strength (?).

It may be similar in concept to one of those survival knives with a hollowed out handle for storage, but it would be a higher quality custom version with an encapsulated tang instead of a metal tang handle.

And, are there examples of this? Thanks in advance!
 
Usually the place where a knife (during heavy use) would fail first (apart from the cutting eddge is just in front of the handle - as that is the narrowest past of the blade. The more furhter towards the endof the handle, the less strain is applied on the handle/tang. One often sees taper of the tang towards the end of the handle as this helps to adjust the center of mass of the knife (if so wished) or simply to reduce the weight. At the same time - removing material from the tang cost time and effort and also makes fitting of the scales more complicated, so it also costs more.
 
mtangent said:
I think your concept needs pictures.
Click to expand...

Think of it as a knife that started with very thick stock, say 1/4". The tang is left at 1/4", but the blade is ground to, maybe 3/16" thickness, then beveled. So you have a 3/16 thick blade, but a thicker tang, thus making the tang "stronger", because it is thicker.

I agree with Matus, not only from seeing it happen here and other places, but because it makes engineering sense.

If you apply force to the blade, and the blade doesn't fail, that force is going to be transmitted down the blade, into the handle. If it is going to fail, the force on the blade will "find" the first weak point. The ricasso (that flat part between blade and handle) is not as wide as the blade, meaning there is less material there to resist applied force.

So what happens if you remove the ricasso, having the blade bevels end right before the handle?

Probably, the blade chips or cracks, right behind the fulcrum point where you apply force.

To address the OP's question directly:

You could make a knife with a tang that is thicker than the blade. You could take it even further, and instead of applying handle slabs, make the tang the full width and thickness of your slabs.

If you took this gonzo piece out in the field and actually tried to break it, I think you would end up knocking a chunk out of the blade, or breaking it altogether, probably right in front of the choil.

The point of all this is that any knife can be made to fail, no matter how strong it is. The real question is whether your knife is strong enough to do what you need it to do.....
 
The top knife is similar to what I mean in terms of the concept, as more force is spread out throughout the handle.

However, I'm referring to a tang that would be encapsulated and curves with the handle's ergonomics (not just a cylinder).

The ricasso would definitely be the weakest part as the force gets funneled down there from the blade's edge region, and spread out down to the sides. So, if the ricasso would likely fail first, then the point of strengthening the tang may be moot. Conversely, what if the ricasso is made to be conical or cylinder (etc.) in shape, thereby introducing more surface area for the force to spread out over, which would offset the ricasso being the weakest part?

Though, one other benefit I could see from such a "3D" tang, namely one that curves with the handle ergonomics and not simply a cylinder like what's below, be more balanced in the hand instead of tilting from one side or the other.

And, I'm sure it costs more, but wouldn't it still be superior, relatively speaking, especially given the possibility where one may see the tang and not the ricasso break?

Or, instead of the aforementioned tang concept, how about two skeletonized full tangs that are fused perpendicular to one another? Or three that makes a hexagon? Or four, etc until it makes a "caged" tang?

First_OPR.jpg~original
 
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A well made tapered stick tang is more durable than the blade it's attached to in most circumstances. I'd rather have a lighter tool that provides equal or better total performance to a heavier counterpart.
 
:confused: Am I the only one not getting any of this?

I really would, actually, like to understand the point you are getting at.
 
^ what he said.
Better idea �� is to just get a axe/hatchet,hawk,frow. (Think I spelt the last on right). that (and learning how to use them) should solve the ops problem.
 
marcinek said:
:confused: Am I the only one not getting any of this?

I really would, actually, like to understand the point you are getting at.
Click to expand...

The conversation may have gotten lost because I jumped right into the examples without presenting as clear an objective as I could.

Anyway, one point is looking at the physics of a better shock absorbing shape (as opposed to material) over the traditional "flat" full tang, regardless of whether or not one's knife would ever intentionally experience such extreme abuse.

Instead of changing the 2D space of the tang (ignoring the 3D aspect of many traditional tang's homogeneous thickness), why not alter the 3D shape of the tang? So, for instance, would a solid cylinder-shaped stick tang be relatively more stable than a flat stick tang? Would the same concept work for a full tang? If added weight is an issue, would a hollowed but wider full tang be better? Or, would a completely different shape, say, something more "exotic" as a double full tang, each with less thickness than a single full tang, sandwiching a honeycomb matrices be even better?

Is it more complex? Perhaps. More costly? Possibly? Over-engineered? Probably. Only marginally beneficial? Maybe. But, if one doesn't mind the consequences (whether it's heavy or even mild), what is the best tang shape across all axes, all else constant (craftsmanship, steel, etc.)?
 
St33L said:
So, for instance, would a solid cylinder-shaped stick tang be relatively more stable than a flat stick tang? Would the same concept work for a full tang? If added weight is an issue, would a hollowed but wider full tang be better? Or, would a completely different shape, say, something more "exotic" as a double full tang, each with less thickness than a single full tang, sandwiching a honeycomb matrices be even better?
Click to expand...

No. No. No. And No.

Bottom line is that at some point your tang has to become the the same height and thickness as the blade. And at that point, your 3D tang doohickey is the same as a conventional full tang. So it has no advantages over it. There is no more material where the blade meets handle.

It could be as thick as the barrel of a baseball bat, but it has to come down to the size and thickness of the blade eventually.

You need to draw yourself a picture. You are hypothesizing yourself away from reality. Picture should straighten you out. :thumbup:
 
First_OPR_zpsbyda1492.jpg


Even if this "cylinder tang" was solid, you would have no more material along the red line than you would in a full "flat" tang knife using the same blade.

Same amount of material = same amount of strength at that point.
 
marcinek said:
First_OPR_zpsbyda1492.jpg


Even if this "cylinder tang" was solid, you would have no more material along the red line than you would in a full "flat" tang knife using the same blade.

Same amount of material = same amount of strength at that point.
Click to expand...

But what if the ricasso is made thicker like in the knife right below it?

And, yes, the blade is what feels the initial brunt of the impact, but as that energy is absorbed, wouldn't a thicker tang spread the energy over a greater surface area?

And, if you take, say, a clip point, and it immediately straightens out horizontally at the spine, would a blade that instead moved diagonally up at the spine (like a clipped arrowhead) help the blade more from breaking? If so, then as you move further down the blade, the handle may help with the impact less, but using the example of the clip point with a thrust impact, wouldn't a higher and wider z-axis tang help to absorb the energy more than a flat full tang?
 
Using nature as an example, depending on the animal and which tooth, we see that roots of teeth typically have single or double prongs that secure itself into one's gums. Let's consider carnivores with massive bite impacts. The roots all look to narrow the deeper they go, but they are conical in shape and exhibits a curvature, while the center of the teeth down to the roots are also typically hollow, which is in contrast to the flat and rectangular tang we see on knives (though there are skeletonized tangs). Some of the two pronged roots even go wider than the teeth themselves. Of course, on a knife this extremely wide handle will probably not make sense unless it's a very small blade for a specialized task; but, wouldn't this indicate that a narrowing tang that's conical in shape, with a single or two pronged tang with at least a little or even no hollowing prove as a better profile than a relatively flat surfaced straight tang (or at least worth consideration)?


2D cross section of some animals (as you know, these are of varying "round" profiles and not flat like a cuboid):
IMC02874.gif


2D cross section of some human teeth:
dentition-adult-human.jpeg
 
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What you're asking about, are you thinking about the strength of the tang or the shock absorption properties of the handle when you chop or something? I personally don't feel that a person needs anything more than a full tang for strength. In most cases it's overkill really. As to the shock of a chop, yeah I think what you're saying could help. The problem is that it will never be as good as a different material that would be WAY cheaper to slap on a standard tang then a bunch of machining work(looking squarely at res-c here).
 
Chop or thrust action, using a convex grind blade profile is what I'm imagining. So, perhaps a conical and curved hidden tang that's the same length as typical handles would be relatively more secure from shock and other stresses, albeit overkill or maybe even only a marginal benefit for any given task. If it is better, I think it's neat to have an "over-engineered" tang.
 
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