Superior to a traditional full tang?

FortyTwoBlades said:
Now, for equal quantity of steel a tubular tang will give greater rigidity, if I have my facts straight.
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That's right. but not greater strength, & probably less ability to absorb shocks passing down the blade.

St33L, I like discussing new ideas, & design issues.
 
Yeah it'd be more likely to snap under load rather than bend, I think. I'm not an engineer, though--could be wrong.

3-D print a hollow handle with an internal honeycomb. That'd be fun. :D
 
St33L said:
I'm primarily referring to the tang.

It would be the same question as asking why one would choose, say, a stick tang over a half tang, or a full tang over a stick tang. If the tang didn't matter, then everyone should choose the smallest tang as it requires the least amount of effort to build. But, it clearly does matter to different people for different tasks. So then, is a full tang the best tang construction? Asking about the other parts is relevant to the overall integrity of the knife, but as far as the specific tang shape is concerned, I'd think it would have less bearing than discussing the tang's shape itself.
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Failure happens not in the tang, but where the tang and blade meet. The cross section of that join is smaller with stick tangs. But it cannot be any larger than when the cross section of the blade is the same size and shape as the cross section of the tang. And that's what happens with many full tang designs.

The blade has to start somewhere. You can attach blade X to a full tang like I described above, or you an attach it to Forty Two Blades cannonball. In both cases you have the same cross sectional area where the blade begins.
 
For what its worth - in paarticular on japanese kitchen knives (that have relatively thin and short tang) is the 'neck' of the blade often thicker to make up for the blade height. Indeed - japanese kitchen knives are about the last tool one would use to pry or baton as the blades are usually thin and hard.

See here:
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server5.../P1270792__52359.1438001602.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
The tang looses height & width as it enters the hadle (only visible when you remove the handle):
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server5.../P1270791__40654.1438001602.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
A well made tapered stick tang is more durable than the blade it's attached to in most circumstances. I'd rather have a lighter tool that provides equal or better total performance to a heavier counterpart.
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I agree with this. Usually, if the tang breaks it is because you are doing something wrong. A knife is a cutting tool not a prybar. This is often forgotten by people who baton the knife deep into a huge block of wood and then try to extract the blade by prying the handle off.

n2s
 
marcinek said:
Failure happens not in the tang, but where the tang and blade meet. The cross section of that join is smaller with stick tangs. But it cannot be any larger than when the cross section of the blade is the same size and shape as the cross section of the tang. And that's what happens with many full tang designs.

The blade has to start somewhere. You can attach blade X to a full tang like I described above, or you an attach it to Forty Two Blades cannonball. In both cases you have the same cross sectional area where the blade begins.
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Hold it! I got it! I have overcome the "cross sectional area where the blade begins" problem!

Make the cross sectional area of the blade larger! I cannot believe no one has thought of this before. I'm gonna make a million dollars! Nobody steal my idea.
 
not2sharp said:
I agree with this. Usually, if the tang breaks it is because you are doing something wrong. A knife is a cutting tool not a prybar. This is often forgotten by people who baton the knife deep into a huge block of wood and then try to extract the blade by prying the handle off.

n2s
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It's worth noting that not all knives are exclusively for cutting tasks, and many are intended from the onset to be used for splitting and/or prying tasks. However, even these tools often have the tang overbuilt for what they need. In any design there are competing forces at work to optimize the tool for its intended range of function. :)
 
St33l I think your idea was already done, there is an old fighting/utility knife called a "smatchet" that has a tang/blade connection with no stress risers at all.
 
St33L said:
Is a hollowed out, "3D" full tang superior to that of a traditional flat full tang for high abuse activities (e.g. heavy batoning)? That is, the full tang moves across the Z-axis along the curvature of the handle's ergonomics. Thus, instead of having a thickness equal to the knife blank it's much thicker.

I'd imagine a knife of this construction would have an encapsulated tang.
Also, the reason for its hollowing would be to reduce the weight while maintaining the same strength - I'm making a guess here that it would be similar to the function of a fuller or an I-beam in that you reduce the weight while maintaining practically the same amount of support strength (?).

It may be similar in concept to one of those survival knives with a hollowed out handle for storage, but it would be a higher quality custom version with an encapsulated tang instead of a metal tang handle.

And, are there examples of this? Thanks in advance!
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Mathematical calculations know as Finite Element Analysis can tell engineers where mechanical stress is occurring in order to model "optimum" designs to reduce stress under the end applications. Some knife manufacturers do this. As to whether the tang if left alone and not machined would be any stronger or equivalent to a milled out tang, only scientific testing could give you some valid results and this would only be for exactly the same model knife. Milling cost more money, and so does employing/engaging high end engineers.


To be honest The only scientific load tests I've seen were from Extrema ratio, who BTW collaborated with several universities as well to do this and these were published in the public domain, for their FULCRUM model and at destruction the lateral load is pretty impressive. The Fulcrum BTW has a tapering tang design I've hung off mine at over 70Kg, a bending moment against the guard. This is a little less than half the equivalent force at which the Fulcrum failed at.

Oh yeah, it's not just a simple tang blade thing either so much depends on material and actual physical design, not to mention heat treatment regimes etc etc
 
not2sharp said:
I agree with this. Usually, if the tang breaks it is because you are doing something wrong. A knife is a cutting tool not a prybar. This is often forgotten by people who baton the knife deep into a huge block of wood and then try to extract the blade by prying the handle off.

n2s
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Also people forget batoning applies huge forces into the spine. If there are defects they will almost always show after that first or second strike resulting in a classical brittle-like fracture. Also if there are no defects then cold working the blade by batoning is also not a good thing. The hardness will also play a significant role too and the distribution of any particular grain structure within the blade/tool.

I guess batoning is a totally unscientific "impact test" LOL but has of course become mainstream and a major fixation amongst the knife community as to the "worthiness" of any said knife. I think those that really understand some basic metallurgy and or truly know knives, know this is BS. Sorry not meant to infuriate anyone so I'll say JMHO based on over 35 years experience both scientific and other, as a disclaimer here.


The true "worthiness" of any blade (provided it's not a POS/POC) can only be demonstrated by the skill of the hand that wields it and as this is unscientific too LOL, the results for the same knife will be different for each and everyone of us meaning some will say how great that blade "A" is and others at the other end of the spectrum, hate it.

Oh one last thing I have had knives break without so much as nothing more than swinging it into a sapling (in this case, catastrophic failure as evidenced by a brittle fracture surface when I photographed it at high mag for the manufacturer who did in the end "suggest" a problem in the automatic furnace!
 
Chris Reeve's One Piece Range Knives - sadly discontinued with secondary market prices reflecting their appeal.
 

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SALTY said:
Chris Reeve's One Piece Range Knives - sadly discontinued with secondary market prices reflecting their appeal.
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That brand which Shall not be mentioned here makes a few models in very tough 1070. Not my cup of tea but they are going to be extremely hard to break, even if you try to.
 
It seems to me that the best knife for a "serious abuse situations" is an ax: there is no need to look any further!
 
thatsaknife said:
why all this love for batoning wood with a knife? I personally like a 1/16 to 1/8 inch thick blade.
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Because on the trails hiking you don't need an axe to prep the kind of wood needed for a quick cooking fire. People who baton aren't splitting enough wood to heat a house for a Michigan winter. They just need to get at dry heart wood to get a fire going fast. Don't need an axe for that.
 
Boris74 said:
Because on the trails hiking you don't need an axe to prep the kind of wood needed for a quick cooking fire. People who baton aren't splitting enough wood to heat a house for a Michigan winter. They just need to get at dry heart wood to get a fire going fast. Don't need an axe for that.
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I see point well taken. In that case my 4 inchx1/8 inch full tang knife should hold up just fine if I need to make a quick fire.
 
Well fellas, pulling this one out of the basement, because I kept trying to figure out what a full-thickness round tang would look like. I know that St33 didn't start out with exactly the idea of a round tang knife in mind, but it would leave the least amount of flat space to serve as a weak point.











So I had a 1 1/4" round dowel rod. I think it's white pine, and I cut off a 7 inch piece. The "blade" is 3 1/2, and I did the tip like a Razel-style knife. I didn't tell the Graham brothers, either, so I hope it's okay.

It's unique, that's for sure...

Anyway, I suppose this is what happens when you follow a concept to it's logical conclusion.

If there is any further interest in this concept, I'll be happy to speculate on weak points, cutting performance (of a steel version, of course), and so on and so forth.
 
I'm kinda thinkin' this is an answer in search of a question. I have seen plenty of broken blades, or breaks at the blade/tang joint, but I've never seen a broken tang. Not saying it couldn't happen, I've just never seen it.
 
ebidis said:
I'm kinda thinkin' this is an answer in search of a question. I have seen plenty of broken blades, or breaks at the blade/tang joint, but I've never seen a broken tang. Not saying it couldn't happen, I've just never seen it.
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I agree. Something like this will surface sooner or later, anyway. I had to "build" it, to get the concept straight in my head, and although it's more like a splitting maul, I was reasonably pleased with how it came out. Having done the work, I wanted to post it up. Now that I've been able to get it out of my head, I'm happy to let this thread fall, again.

Good night, everybody.
 
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