Surefire vs. Fenix

ZDHart said:
THis is one of the major drawbacks to nearly all of Surefire's line. With few exceptions, Surefires must be powered by one or more CR123 Lithium cells. These are a great power source, however, they are not generally easy to find and when you do, expect to spend anywhere from four to eight bucks per cell. (If you shop the internet, you can do much better than this... but don't expect to find replacement cells at your local drugstore and if you do... you'll pay dearly for them!)

And the problem with lithium cells is that each time you use the flashlight, the battery become weaker, so over time, you will start your day with a flashlight which has a semi-discharged cell. In time you can do nothing but discard the depleted expensive cell! On the other hand, with other brands/models which can be powered with rechargeable li-ion cells, you can top the cell off at the end of the day and always start each day with a fresh cell.

Um, that's how all batteries work unless they are rechargeable. Surefire lights can run on rechargeable CR123 cells.

And for Surefire models which use two lithium cells, you MUST make sure the two cells are very well matched to each other... for using a fresh cell with a partially or fully depleted cell can result in a very dangerous lithium venting "event" which can cause severe damage, injury, and/or fire. This is serious stuff... we're not talking about your grandpa's harmless alkaline batteries here.

This "venting" and "severe damage" only results in batteries without sufficient thermal overload protection, such as those made in China without proper quality control.

This is the major reason why I don't use my Surefires very often. I prefer to use brands/models which can be powered by rechargeable li-ion cells, rechargeable NiMH cells or even, if no other option is available, the lowly AA alkaline cell which can be found pretty much EVERYWHERE, no matter where you are.

Practically every Surefire flashlight must be powered by a CR123 Lithium primary cell. This is an important point you should not lightly overlook. Lithium cells are the cells of the future... they pack a lot of power in a very small space and have a very long shelf life, but they have some noteworthy drawbacks as well. You need to understand flashlight powering sources and options well before venturing into this realm.
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Don't get me started on buying lithium cells in a brick and morter store. Several wanted upwards of ten dollars each. Ridiculous. That's why I always have spares.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
.....

this is why i nearly always recommed a surefire for field use. every fenix ive owned has activated to an unintended mode on multiple occassions. i tried a nitecore d20 for a while on duty, but the clip sucked and it would change modes on its own. i went back to a surefire.
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I think this is part of the reason why I like the Fenix TK10 so much. Unreal durability plus the convenience of reliable simplicity.

High or low, twist the head to take your pick.

Not much that can go wrong! :thumbup:
 
JoshK.... you are wrong about powering on Surefire lights. With few (if any) exceptions, Surefire lights are designed to run on 3 volt lithium primary cells (aka CR123). Rechargeable lithium ion cells (aka RCR123) run a nominal 4.2 volts and will typically void your warranty on a Surefire light if not burn it out or cause runability problems. For example, my E1b will run on a 4.2v RCR123, but the low mode is not functional and if I burn out my Surefire LED by running with an ill-advised 4.2 v li-ion rechargeable, Surefire is not going to warranty that as they specifically spec their lights for 3v lithium primaries (CR123) and NOT 4.2v lithium-ion (RCR123) rechargeables.

You are also wrong on the venting issue. If you take any fully charged lithium primary and a partially or fully discharged lithium primary and run them together in a two-cell flashlight, you have a significant risk of a venting/hazardous event. If you don't believe me, do the research. Ask Surefire what would happen if you used a fresh Surefire brand CR123 with a discharged Surefire brand CR123 and you will be strongly cautioned of the risk of danger. (Panasonic is the maker of Surefire CR123's and they are of good quality, but running two mismatched high quality CR123 cells is asking for real trouble!)

Err on the side of caution and knowledge, my friend, living on the edge can have a very steep price and urging others to do so on the internet superhighway is highly irresponsible.

You can read ALL about this on candlepowerforums.com
 
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ZDHart said:
JoshK.... you are wrong about powering on Surefire lights. With few (if any) exceptions, Surefire lights are designed to run on 3 volt lithium primary cells (aka CR123). Rechargeable lithium ion cells (aka RCR123) run a nominal 4.2 volts and will typically void your warranty on a Surefire light if not burn it out or cause runability problems. For example, my E1b will run on a 4.2v RCR123, but the low mode is not functional and if I burn out my Surefire LED by running with an ill-advised 4.2 v li-ion rechargeable, Surefire is not going to warranty that as they specifically spec their lights for 3v lithium primaries (CR123) and NOT 4.2v lithium-ion (RCR123) rechargeables.

You are also wrong on the venting issue. If you take any fully charged lithium primary and a partially or fully discharged lithium primary and run them together you have a significant risk of thermal runaway. If you don't believe me, do the research. Ask Surefire what would happen if you used a fresh Surefire CR123 with a discharged Surefire CR123 and you will be strongly cautioned of the risk of danger. Err on the side of caution and knowledge, my friend, living on the edge can have a very steep price.

You can read ALL about this on candlepowerforums.com
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First off you can find 3.6 nominal (not 4.2 hot off the charger) CR123 cells. I have some Tenergy that while giving less runtime then standard, are also right around 3v and undercut the ma enough that I'm not worried about it.

Yes, thermal runaway is a problem. However, build thermal shunts into the cells prevents this. It's not a significant problem unless you're severely stupid, and use cheap batteries. I don't know anyone who only changed out one battery on a two battery light.

I don't advocate the use of rechargeable li-ion batteries in lights, but that's just me. I do know that plenty of people have had absolutely zero problems using rechargeable cells.
 
Josh K said:
First off you can find 3.6 nominal (not 4.2 hot off the charger) CR123 cells. I have some Tenergy that while giving less runtime then standard, are also right around 3v and undercut the ma enough that I'm not worried about it.

Yes, thermal runaway is a problem. However, build thermal shunts into the cells prevents this. It's not a significant problem unless you're severely stupid, and use cheap batteries. I don't know anyone who only changed out one battery on a two battery light.

I don't advocate the use of rechargeable li-ion batteries in lights, but that's just me. I do know that plenty of people have had absolutely zero problems using rechargeable cells.
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Yes, if one searches, it is possible to find some lower voltage (3.6v perhaps?) li-ion rechargeables, but generally speaking, the standard off the charger voltage of li-ions is 4.2v... a long ways from the 3.0 v which Surefires are designed for. Confused about this? CALL SUREFIRE AND ASK THEM IF YOU CAN RUN A Lithium-Ion rechargeable in their lights!

Protected li-ion rechargeables have built in circuitry to help prevent a venting episode, which MAY help safeguard you if you overdischarge or over charge the cell. Un-protected li-ions do not. Always choose protected li-ions to help hedge against a thermal melt down. But we're talking about Lithium-ion rechargeables here, NOT lithium primaries!

Josh K said:
I don't know anyone who only changed out one battery on a two battery light.
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Just because you don't know anyone who has done this does not negate the fact that a Surefire or any brand flashlight which runs on two lithium primaries must not be run with mismatched lithium primaries at the risk of a dangerous event. Period. If someone buys a two-cell Surefire and doesn't understand this stuff, they can pay a serious price for that! To recommend a two-cell Surefire or other flashlight that runs on lithium primaries to the general public without mentioning the cautions and advisories is irresponsible at the very least.

Word to the wise, do not mix ANY UN-matched lithium primaries in any two or multi-cell flashlight!!! This is STRONGLY ill-advised as a safety hazard.

Best bet? Buy single cell lights that are multi-voltage designed! That is, ones that are sized AND designed to run on not only lithium primaries, but also on li-ion rechargeables, NiMH rechargeables, and even lowly AA alkalines. And if you want a lot of long-lasting power in a single cell light, buy one which can run on a single 18650 rechargeable li-ion! ;) Does Surefire make any of those? Don't think so. And word to the wise, learn the do's and don'ts of both lithium primaries AND lithium-ion rechargeables.
 
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ZDHart said:
Yes, if one searches, it is possible to find some lower voltage (3.6v perhaps?) li-ion rechargeables, but generally speaking, the standard off the charger voltage of li-ions is 4.2v... a long ways from the 3.0 v which Surefires are designed for. Confused about this? CALL SUREFIRE AND ASK THEM IF YOU CAN RUN A Lithium-Ion rechargeable in their lights!

I don't care what it was designed to do, I care about what it can do.

Protected li-ion rechargeables have built in circuitry to help prevent a venting episode and un-protected li-ions do not. Always choose protected li-ions to help hedge against a thermal melt down. But we're talking about Lithium-ion rechargeables here NOT lithium primaries!

So you're trying to tell me that rechargeable wouldn't have protection against overvolting and thermal overload?

Just because you don't know anyone who has done this does not negate the fact that a Surefire or any brand flashlight which runs on two lithium primaries must not be run with mismatched lithium primaries at the risk of a dangerous event. Period. If someone buys a two-cell Surefire and doesn't understand this stuff, they can pay a serious price for that!

Warnings stamped clearly on the box and user manual. Not to mention all over the packages of batteries. If you miss that and by some act of god it explodes in your hand, I'd say you deserve it.

DO not mix ANY unmatched lithium primaries in any two or multi-cell flashlight!!! This is STRONGLY ill-advised.

Yes, yes it is. We've covered this haven't we?

Best bet? Buy single cell lights! And if you want a lot of long-lasting power in a single cell light, buy one which can run on a single 18650 rechargeable li-ion! ;) Does Surefire make any of those? Don't think so. And word to the wise, learn the dos and don'ts of both lithium primaries AND lithium-ion rechargeables.

Screw single cell. If the batteries start to go I toss them and put in a fresh pair. Why would I ever limit myself to single cell lights?
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Let me know if you caught the Apollo 13 quote up there.
 
Josh... you should know this: protected lithium-ions can reasonably be expected to work "ok" if you or your chargers screw up and overcharges them or if you overdischarge them in your flashlight, but in testing, it is NOT uncommon for the built-in protection circuit to FAIL to kick in as expected. So no, you have no true reassurance that your errors will be protected against. Li-ions, even "protected" li-ions are to be used with knowledge and care. And if done so, they are an incredibly potent, safe, economical, re-useable, and reliable source of power for compact flashlights! (BTW, someday your CAR will be powered by a lithium-ion battery of cells, just as your laptop computer is today!)

As for mismatched lithium primaries... no, there are no "protection" circuits built into lithium primaries to safeguard you if you are ignorant or dumb enough to use two mismatched lithium primaries together in a two cell light. For those wanting compact, safe flashlights, single-cell flashlights are a fantastic choice indeed! And incredibly popular as well.

Josh.. I see no need for me to try to deter you from following your own path on this as you are obviously determined to do. No problem. And I'll follow mine.

P.S. In hindsight, you might want to hang onto those fire extinguishers you are trying to sell! ;) Good luck with that! And my best wishes to you.
 
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ZDHart said:
Josh... you should know this: protected lithium-ions can reasonably be expected to work "ok" if you or your chargers screw up and overcharges them or if you overdischarge them in your flashlight, but in testing, it is NOT uncommon for the built-in protection circuit to FAIL to kick in as expected. So no, you have no true reassurance that your errors will be protected against. Li-ions, even "protected" li-ions are to be used with knowledge and care.

As for mismatched lithium primaries... no, there are no "protection" circuits built into lithium primaries to safeguard you if you are ignorant or dumb enough to use two mismatched lithium primaries together in a two cell light. For those wanting compact, safe flashlights, single-cell flashlights are a fantastic choice indeed! And incredibly popular as well.

Josh.. I see no need for me to try to deter you from following your own path on this as you are obviously determined to do. No problem. And I'll follow mine. (Though you might want to hang onto those Fire Extinguishers you are trying to sell! ;) )
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I don't mess with my lights. Primary cells, no mods, no frills. It works and it's under warranty. ;)

I'm simply saying that in common practice lots of people do use rechargeable cells with no problems.
 
Josh K said:
Screw single cell. If the batteries start to go I toss them and put in a fresh pair. Why would I ever limit myself to single cell lights?
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The E1B is an absolutely fantastic flashlight, personally I'd think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by not considering this type of flashlight simply because it has one cell. Why would you not "limit" yourself to this type of flashlight? What disadvantages does single cell have in your mind? Just curious...
 
somber said:
The E1B is an absolutely fantastic flashlight, personally I'd think you'd be doing yourself a disservice by not considering this type of flashlight simply because it has one cell. Why would you not "limit" yourself to this type of flashlight? What disadvantages does single cell have in your mind? Just curious...
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I have an E1B and I love it. It's the perfect office carry.

I'm not saying I won't consider it, I'm saying I won't limit myself to only single cell lights.
 
Josh K said:
I'm simply saying that in common practice lots of people do use rechargeable cells with no problems.
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And I could not agree with you more! We're singing the same tune here. I generally avoid using lithium primaries (like CR123) in favor of using lithium-ion rechargeables (like RCR123, 14500, 17670, and 18650). And this is why my Surefires see so little use and my Quarks, Nitecores, JetBeams, Litefluxes, Malkoffs, Solarforce etc. see constant use with li-ion rechargeables.

I have an emergency/SHTF supply of lithium primaries (Panasonic CR123 and Everready L91s/AA size) in the fridge, but haven't had to buy a primary flashlight battery in a very long time and don't expect to need to for many years to come! In my world, li-ion rechargeables rule, with NiMH rechargeables next up. And that pretty much rules out Surefire usage.

As for the E1b, it's a really great light indeed and definitely my favorite Surefire light! But honestly, mine sees next to no use compared to alternatives (Quark 123, Quark AA, Liteflux LF3XT, JetBeam 1 Pro, even Romisen RC-N3, all lights which run on li-ion and/or NiMH AA-sized rechargeables as well as lithium primaries or, some, even on AA alkalines (in a pinch).
 
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Josh K said:
Don't get me started on buying lithium cells in a brick and morter store. Several wanted upwards of ten dollars each. Ridiculous. That's why I always have spares.
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Try 16.50 a piece here. :eek: I only buy from the states.
 
Armadew said:
Try 16.50 a piece here. :eek: I only buy from the states.
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Lithium primaries make great back-up/emergency/SHTF cells because they have a shelf life of around 10-15 years or so. You can find good deals on them on the internet when bought in bulk. Last I heard, Panasonic in the USA is the maker for most of the Duracells, Everready and Surefire branded CR123s. I bought a box of twenty Panasonic brand CR123's to stick in long term cold storage (refrigerator) for emergency use and I think I paid a little under $2 each for them.
 
5.56 said:
Most of you are choosing Fenix because of the "bang for the buck" factor, but the OP asked which is better "excluding" price.

So if I offered you a FREE flashlight of your choice, between SF or Fenix, you would take the Fenix?

Not me, price not a factor, I'd take Surefire, and yes I have owned both.
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I would take the Fenix , because i don't have money to throw away on expensive "overpriced" hard to find cr123 batteries.
Personally I would never touch a surefire even if it was for free, unless they dropped the price and at least offered 1 or 2 models in aa.
 
json77 said:
I would take the Fenix , because i don't have money to throw away on expensive "overpriced" hard to find cr123 batteries.
Personally I would never touch a surefire even if it was for free, unless they dropped the price and at least offered 1 or 2 models in aa.
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Some of the Fenix models do take the "overpriced" 123 batteries.
 
teacher said:
Dang............ :eek:
Thanks for sharing that link!!! :thumbup: ;)
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Just a heads up, with Tenergy CR123A's you get what you pay for!

I'm down to my last two from a 10 pack and I'll never buy that brand again.

Titanium Innovations and 4Sevens CR123A's review really well. Thats what I'll likely be ordering next.
 
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