Survival Gear Fallacies

[Hammer67]

The thread on "The Fallacy of Firesteels" got me thinking. While the thread demonstrated that there is a diversity of opinion about whether firesteels truly are a fallacy or not, it prompted some really good discussion. And more importantly, discussion based on experience - as opposed to what I find to often be mostly theoretical discussions of survival gear by people who spend more time on the internet than in the woods.

So it got me curious - what other survival gear fallacies do people find?

I can start it with one that I find to be a little ridiculous - "pocket survival" kits. Why? Because I believe that unless you live in an extremely mild, forgiving environment, there are very, very few people who could actually "survive" for any meaningful amount of time with what they have in an Altoids tin. The whole Altoids tin phenomenon just seems to be an internet forum exercise in deciding on the size of a container first, and then seeing what you can get into it, which when it comes to actual, real survival, is an ass-backwards approach in my opinion. Fun as an abstract exercise? Sure. Truly what you need in a real scenario? Extremely doubtful.

I'll also say that I firmly believe in the adage that, "The more you know, the less you need to carry," and conversely I'm not saying that you need to carry a 30lb pack around with you everywhere, but I really think most people are delusional if they think they're going to be able to survive with what they have in a pocket kit for anything more than a day. What I tend to see instead are people buying or making these mini-kits without anywhere near the amount of knowledge and competency they truly need to make such a minimal kit be realistically useful. Is it better than nothing? Maybe...but more often than not I think it creates a false sense of security more than it helps, and I'd love to see people actually going into the woods for a full weekend, in shitty weather, and having nothing but that pocket kit with them. How many would make it through the first night? And don't even get me started on the "pre-made" kits. Personally I'd rather carry one good, stout knife and some waterproof matches than a whole host of little nick-nacks in an Altoids tin.

Discuss...

 

[pitdog]

I hate it when people say the best survival knife is the one you have with you but it is very true, this logic can also be applied to a Survival kit. What good is a big comprehensive survival kit if you leave it at home or back in the truck. For this reason I think a small pocket kit is that you will always have with you is at least a good back up measure. I try and carry a altoids kit in one pocket, a Survival blanket in another along with some Paracord and a sturdy knife on my belt.
Most survival situations are over in 3 days so food is not an issue hence fishing kits, snares etc are not really high on my priority list.
I think with a few basics you would have a big advantage over the average Joe blow who has nothing.

 

[ROCK6]

I don’t disagree about the mini-kits. They are excellent at mental exercises and even better when rehearsed and used; however they should never replace practiced skill, appropriate preparation and planning. Where most of the smaller kits fall short is in the area of water and shelter: the two most critical aspects that will kill you faster under extreme conditions. I have a few small kits and they do get packed and used to maintain skills and continue to validate/update, but they are only a small part of a more prepared system. My primary knife kit includes a good firesteel and my pockets also have cordage and Bic lighter; the two other important items are a quality water container (preferably something you can boil water in) and a compact sil-tarp or poncho. Yes, I can improvise shelter, but a lightweight tarp/poncho can get you out of the elements much faster and often with better protection. Neither of those two items will fit in a PSK, but must be part of your essentials. I do like the idea of a shoulder bag/belt pouch that integrates a PSK into a shelter/canteen kit.

Purchasing a pre-made PSK and never using it is foolish and truly a fallacy of protection when outdoors. Ritter makes some decent “starter” kits, but anybody who purchase a pre-made kit or builds their own really needs to evaluate it, know the limitations, determine the specific requirements for their environment and ensure it serves more as a complementary addition to a more substantial level of essentials and preparation.

ROCK6

 

[Jdivence]

In my opinion. Fishing gear is not needed in most survival situations but a small fishing hook and a yard of line would make a good Emergancy suture or are good for clothing repair. Food is not nearly as important as water so a purification tablet would be a good addition as well as a fire starter and tinder. For me I have a kit larger than an altitudes tin that contains a bic a fire steel char cloth 1 fish hook with a yard of braided line, solar blanket and para cord. I need to add water purification tablets to be "complete". All of this is only a little bigger than an alto ifs tin and I keep it in a ziplock. Perhaps a compass would also be helpful. But if it gets too big it risks getting left behind.

 

[plumberroy]

The altiod kit I carry is just a first aid kit for minor to moderate injuries. I can deal with cuts that would need a few stitches. Anytime I get away from the car any distance I carry a bigger kit with a bigger fak in it. every thing is modular. Work I carry a set of stuff general out and about parts of work stuff are changed out going to the woods gets stuff changed out again. I carry UTG mexpedition clone bag (versipak jumbo) I consider a comfort bag Fak, hand sanitizer, compress wash rag , muscle rub ,It is hell to get old heat sheets extra lighter whetstone couple sporks etc . Heat sheets have been used as rain cover at festivals I have a day pack with enough to stand 2-3 days out plus walking staffs and a fishing bag in the car
Roy

 

[Angus McGunnigl]

I like the mini kit thing. I don't have fishing stuff in my mini kit.

 

[Hammer67]

....Where most of the smaller kits fall short is in the area of water and shelter: the two most critical aspects that will kill you faster under extreme conditions....

Purchasing a pre-made PSK and never using it is foolish and truly a fallacy of protection when outdoors. Ritter makes some decent “starter” kits, but anybody who purchase a pre-made kit or builds their own really needs to evaluate it, know the limitations, determine the specific requirements for their environment and ensure it serves more as a complementary addition to a more substantial level of essentials and preparation.

ROCK6

This.

I'd wager that the ratio of people carrying these "mini" kits to the number of people who actually have the depth and breadth of skill and training to truly survive with one in anything other than the most mild, forgiving environment is easily 1000:1.

Again, I do believe that the more knowledge you have, the less you truly need to carry, and I'm not saying that even something as minimal as a "mini" kit doesn't have some limited usefulness. But the less you carry, the more you better know.

As Rock 6 points out, one of the places that these kits really fall short - with a critical consideration - is in terms of shelter. You always hear people respond to this by saying, "I have a survival blanket in my Altoids tin, and I can use that as shelter." Yeah, right. Have you actually ever had to use it as shelter in real conditions? In a storm? In sub-freezing temperatures? Until you actually have, don't bother saying that you can, and don't delude yourself. Furthermore, if the only knife that you have with you is so tiny that it fits in an Altoids tin, then you really don't have the tools you need to construct shelter in the backcountry, imo (though in the frontcountry I'm sure you could scavenge/cobble something together). You also do not really have a viable way of processing wood for a fire, so you are limited to whatever you can scavenge, another one of the 4 critical considerations.

You need to be acutely aware of how truly limited you are by such a kit, and not have illusions that your ass is covered, simply because you have an Altoids tin crammed with stuff in your pocket. And least not for 99% of people.

 

[fmajor007]

It really always comes down to *knowing* and not having..... Knowing what to do or having the *confident* ability to adapt (and overcome....) is the most significant "survival kit" and not simply *having (possessing)* the right tools because having/possessing does not guarantee the ability to use.

In principle, i agree with oft quoted, "the more you know the less you carry" idiom. However, there are basic, essential tools required for "exposure" type survival situations and they're not going to fit in an Altoids tin.

When you need to construct shelter and get a fire going to keep hypothermia from progressing, a dinky knife isn't gonna handle the task. OK, maybe on a nice comfy 60F day when the test is conducted by someone who is well-fed, warm, rested and properly hydrated. However, when you're cold (aka hands trembling, legs shaking) and exhausted (either/or physically or emotionally from the trauma of the precipitating event/s) you need tools/supplies that are easy to use, effective and impart confidence. Well experienced folks who can get by with minimal tools are rare and they usually *never* get themselves in "survival" situations to begin with...

My personal approach is to have a EDC pack (yup, about 30lbs) with my essential tools and fire-making supplies with me *always*. These tools share a 3,000 cu.in. pack with my photography gear and 1st aide kit. This bag is never more than 30 yards from me (or rare occasion maybe left in my car, but this is *rare*). Otherwise, i carry a SAK Huntsman in my pocket and it goes everywhere - from meetings when i'm wearing a suit to meeting "clients". However, my EDC pack is always nearby.

I get some strange looks and on occasion people ask if i'm going camping to which i respond, truthfully, that it's my camera pack and i like to always be ready to grab a photo if something 'interesting' presents itself. I also have my leather brief case w/laptop and other work stuff, but the people i work with become accustomed to seeing me with both bags and don't bother to ask questions.

For me, over use of survival items in general high-light people's false sense of security by placing confidence in things rather than skills.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I'm with you on the Altoids tin thing. I wrote as much here about a month ago so I wont again...................I do wonder a lot about waterproofs. There was a guy that used to post here that was the best example ever, bloody hilarious chap. Reading him was like reading Easton Ellis in the book American Psycho with its pisstake of the yuppie movement - “I used my A ax to open my B beer after I had a C make sausage breakfast. I washed it down with a cup of D Joe and then struck out in my E truck. I was wearing my F socks and G trousers. I was so glad It's Tactical had just reviewed my H knife because I got two yesterday and I brought them both – then it rained quite hard and I got soaked to the skin and went home”................................On a related note, short of falling in a river how are people getting wet. I can see how it might happen on the most causal stroll, you know, taking the dog out for a couple of hours before work, but right out in the sticks where you knew you would be. Dumb! What the hell do you bring I wonder – I decided to bring an ax and a tarp for a day hike instead. Do what. One of the greatest joys when I began working for myself was the ability to roam around the woods at night a hell of a lot, rain or shine. The same waterproofs that worked during the day still worked at night. And what's with the laying on the ground crap. True if it really is desperate and drags on you might have to fashion a bed to sleep but that isn't the norm. You back into something out of the wind and sit on your pack, ideally in a bothy bag with your mate. It's fundamental hillwalking and mountain leadership ship stuff. Lounging around on the ground is not..................I don't want to get too activated here so I'll quit at one more; stitching your own wounds together like a too high for his own good snowboarder trying to gain kudos off his buddies. Irrigate, disinfect, apply pressure, apply dressings, stuff like that, not hey sepsis I'm home come visit me. Grrrrr

 

[ROCK6]

On a related note, short of falling in a river how are people getting wet. I can see how it might happen on the most causal stroll, you know, taking the dog out for a couple of hours before work, but right out in the sticks where you knew you would be. Dumb!

I avoid getting wet unless I'm specifically hiking in/around small creeks and rivers. Growing up in the PNW, it rained often enough that you just learned to dress for it and ignored the effects but made sure you packed dry clothing for a change in needed.

My son and I have explored up and down small rivers, literally swimming and wading chest deep. I've taken a spill or three when fly-fishing in tight spots trying to get to small pools or under banks. If it's just a drizzle, I'm not too concerned, but I've been surprised by some pretty severe thundershowers here in the Southeast; no choice but to quickly put up a small tarp to keep from getting fully soaked; hence the reason I highly recommend a quality shelter to pack along and have it quickly accessible.

ROCK6

 

[baldtaco-II]

I avoid getting wet unless I'm specifically hiking in/around small creeks and rivers. Growing up in the PNW, it rained often enough that you just learned to dress for it and ignored the effects but made sure you packed dry clothing for a change in needed.My son and I have explored up and down small rivers, literally swimming and wading chest deep. I've taken a spill or three when fly-fishing in tight spots trying to get to small pools or under banks. If it's just a drizzle, I'm not too concerned, but I've been surprised by some pretty severe thundershowers here in the Southeast; no choice but to quickly put up a small tarp to keep from getting fully soaked; hence the reason I highly recommend a quality shelter to pack along and have it quickly accessible.ROCK6

Yeah, I can get wet when my cousin lures me down the caves he loves to try to get me in up north. There's not much avoiding it, and that's where my Buffalo stuff really shines. That said, when you read some of the threads that are preoccupied with tarps yet the guy selects waxed cotton showerproof as his rain shell it's a bit of a headscratcher.

 

[Hammer67]

Another common fallacy - that one of the primary criteria for choosing a survival knife is its suitability for personal defense.

Pick a knife for its real-world versatility and its capability for tasks that will probably be far more required in such a situation - like processing wood, game, cordage, food, etc. Unless you have extensive, professional training in knives for personal defense, don't even worry about this - your Kephart or Fox River will likely be just as effective as a last-ditch bit of personal defense as a serrated Ka-Bar will. Which is to say probably not very much at all, before you become the recipient of your own tool.

 

[R.Russell]

I use my kit all the time because it has things in it I actually use. I do spend a lot of time in the woods but I can list the things in my "not an altoids" tin I grab for all the time. I needed a bigger tin so I picked up an old tea tin from ebay thats about double an altoid's tin. 6 x 3 1/4 x 1 1/4. fits snug in a pouch with space blanket next to it and rides in a water bottle holder or my take to work bag. I do carry an extensive medical kit when I can and know whats in there and how to use it.

The way I see it the more thats in your tin you use and replace--- great.

suture kit and a couple alcohol wipes: my dog was bit in the head by a German shepard. 5 stitches. I bought the kit two weeks before. Need another now. Dog drank a beer to numb the pain first.
Silicon earplugs. was out on a job and didn't have earplugs, still have good hearing. also keep them in the kit for sleeping under an overpass in SHTF scenario or patching putty. probably good firestarter material. it takes a flame and holds it but I haven't tried fire steel.
firesteel: used last night to light an oven pilot that wasn't reachable with a lighter. turkey was good not great. firesteel is a nubbin of what it once was.
superglue: have used it many many times for gluing inanimate objects and cuts.
bic lighter that stays in kit: used many times.
unlubricated condom: for water but used and replaced. lubrication is good in certain scenarios. probably good flammability too.
emergen-C packet: used and replaced many times when hung over in a strange place
chopsticks: used many times
mini pry bar: many uses and well used
p-38 canopener: used for many unintended uses. well used, well loved.
micro sized flashlight with backup watch sized battery: used but once, but its a backup to the one in my pocket.
french folding scissors: used a lot
tweezers: used a lot
tinder tabs: used and replaced
gorilla tape wrapped around a credit card: used and replaced
a couple zip ties: used one yesterday, replaced.
all of this fits in the above tin including the items below

how are you going to do all of the above with knowledge alone?

Things I haven't used: solar blanket ( but I want it there) mini hack saw(want it there) signaling mirror with fresnel (want it there), button compass(want it), filter straw (want it) immodium tabs(want them too)

knowledge is still king, but life is messy and having stuff is great.
I hate the term survival kit. Mine is a life kit.
Those junky pre-made kits do suck.
I carry at least one knife, and don't live in an area that snows but I have practiced my skills enough to live off the grid for quite a while.

 

[upnorth]

The thread on "The Fallacy of Firesteels" got me thinking. While the thread demonstrated that there is a diversity of opinion about whether firesteels truly are a fallacy or not, it prompted some really good discussion. And more importantly, discussion based on experience - as opposed to what I find to often be mostly theoretical discussions of survival gear by people who spend more time on the internet than in the woods.

So it got me curious - what other survival gear fallacies do people find?

I can start it with one that I find to be a little ridiculous - "pocket survival" kits. Why? Because I believe that unless you live in an extremely mild, forgiving environment, there are very, very few people who could actually "survive" for any meaningful amount of time with what they have in an Altoids tin. The whole Altoids tin phenomenon just seems to be an internet forum exercise in deciding on the size of a container first, and then seeing what you can get into it, which when it comes to actual, real survival, is an ass-backwards approach in my opinion. Fun as an abstract exercise? Sure. Truly what you need in a real scenario? Extremely doubtful.

I'll also say that I firmly believe in the adage that, "The more you know, the less you need to carry," and conversely I'm not saying that you need to carry a 30lb pack around with you everywhere, but I really think most people are delusional if they think they're going to be able to survive with what they have in a pocket kit for anything more than a day. What I tend to see instead are people buying or making these mini-kits without anywhere near the amount of knowledge and competency they truly need to make such a minimal kit be realistically useful. Is it better than nothing? Maybe...but more often than not I think it creates a false sense of security more than it helps, and I'd love to see people actually going into the woods for a full weekend, in shitty weather, and having nothing but that pocket kit with them. How many would make it through the first night? And don't even get me started on the "pre-made" kits. Personally I'd rather carry one good, stout knife and some waterproof matches than a whole host of little nick-nacks in an Altoids tin.

Discuss...

I am not at a skill level or equiped to spend a weekend outside in serious cold. I do however try to practice what I flap my gums about though. Yes I see a lot of arm chair coaches but few posts of people outside in the cold and wet, practicing how not to starve and freeze. The most likely scenario down in the south here is a car break down\accident, blizzard, whatever. I actually DO this stuff to have the ability when the chips are down. It's different with cold half numb hands outside, than banging away on a keyboard in a toasty warm room. I practice with the gear that I have to know how it\I performs. Some things work, some don't, but this is the most practical way to find out. Before the emergency.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1012444-Tried-to-make-tea-part-2-success

 

[FoxholeAtheist]

As Rock 6 points out, one of the places that these kits really fall short - with a critical consideration - is in terms of shelter. You always hear people respond to this by saying, "I have a survival blanket in my Altoids tin, and I can use that as shelter." Yeah, right. Have you actually ever had to use it as shelter in real conditions? In a storm? In sub-freezing temperatures? Until you actually have, don't bother saying that you can, and don't delude yourself.

You should at least try it out on your back deck! My Heat Sheet test on BF

I think this is a good topic. I'd like to throw in "wire saws". I've owned two different wire saws in my day. The kind that is nothing more than a wire with notches on it every 1/2" is useless. The kind that had little wires braided around a big wire cut well, but ended up breaking when I let it get a kink in it. Much better for wood processing is an inexpensive pruning saw.

For an arbitrary-sized survival kit, how about one that would fit in a stainless nalgene bottle? You can fit a decent-sized knife, heat blanket, cordage, etc in it. Many carriers are designed around the 1l bottle size, AND you can use the stainless bottle as your boilable water container.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

I can start it with one that I find to be a little ridiculous - "pocket survival" kits. .

Man, when I first read this I was hot to respond. I didn't because I'm on pain meds (4 kidneys stones lasered and removed) and I'm sure I wouldn't be too coherent, maybe still not, but here goes.

I disagree with the above statement wholeheartedly. PSK's can indeed be worthwhile, in fact, even life saving, but let's look at the context. My definition of a PSK is a last ditch, redundant source of equipment, duplicating things that you already carry - the old "two is one, and one is...." In fact, my thought is they should be sealed in some way as to not be used frivolously- they should only be employed when there are no ready alternatives. ROCK6 makes the point that water containers and shelter are impossible to carry in a PSK, and I agree totally, almost.

But to me, fire and shelter are not mutually exclusive and a small psk can provide you with a quick source of flame. I can make fire with a bow drill and a hand drill, and I've unraveled the thread from the bottom of a pair of jeans and corded it successfully for the bow string, but it's sure a lot faster with a ferro rod and a fire straw. I know this doesn't solve the bigger fuel issues, but most times that doesn't require a big blade or an ax, at least not where I live. And sometimes, a big fire is all the shelter you need.

Also quite often when improvising a shelter, a little cordage (100 plus feet of jute in the pouch), another little bit in the can and the snare wire) can go a long ways - forget about making snares or fishing line for a short term stay as pointed out by pitdog. Would I rather have a tarp or a poncho, sure, but this is a stop gap measure when you don't have those things.

Direction finding? We can determine direction by shadow stick, shadowless stick and equal shadow techniques, not to mention, Polaris, Cassiopeia (sp?), Orion etc. at night, but it sure is a lot faster using a very small magnet compass, probably 6 of which you can fit on a dime.

So with this little kit (seen here), I can use it to aid in making a shelter, make fire much faster than with friction fire techniques, determine direction, and even the little safety pins could be useful to temporarily repair a necessary article of clothing in cold weather.

I even added a few small waterproof cards to remind me of things like ground to air signals, which I can never remember for some reason.

What more can you ask for out of a kit, smaller than an Altoids can?

Doc

Coincidentally, my buddy Phil and I are planning a video of disecting a PSK, demonstrating the uses of the article contained within and demonstrating alternative techniques using only natural alternatives (eg. using Hawthorn needles instead of the enclosed steel one).

(Hope this is coherent )

 

[Hammer67]

Cool, Doc. Thanks for weighing in. Like I said earlier, I think a diversity of opinion and experience is a good thing. I look forward to your video.

 

[JV3]

while were discussing fallacies, i think "The more you know, the less you need to carry" is another fallacy.

i'm experienced enough to know i'd rather bring a tarp because making a debris or emergency shelter is very time consuming (if there's even enough materials there) and bic lighter/fire kit because although i've been successful with bow-drill in the past, i know how hard it can be and it may not always work (again, there might not even be suitable materials there).

i think a better term would be "skills over gear" and leave it at that. "The more you know, the less you need to carry" pushes people into minimizing their gear to the point where it might be too dangerous...an extension of that is being too ultralight...here's a nice article written by andrew skurka, “Stupid light”: Why light is not necessarily right, and why lighter is not necessarily better: http://andrewskurka.com/2012/stupid-light-not-always-right-or-better

 

[bladerique]

[video=youtube;y2hkPwC3pGU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2hkPwC3pGU[/video]

 

[Thomas Linton]

Lots of interesting, thought-provoking posts.

I believe that unless you live in an extremely mild, forgiving environment, there are very, very few people who could actually "survive" for any meaningful amount of time with what they have in an Altoids tin.
. . .
The whole Altoids tin phenomenon just seems to be an internet forum exercise in deciding on the size of a container first, and then seeing what you can get into it, which when it comes to actual, real survival, is an ass-backwards approach in my opinion. Fun as an abstract exercise? Sure. Truly what you need in a real scenario? Extremely doubtful.

Probably true as to how many could survive with so little, and, indeed, who made that size package of that brand of breath mints the standard?

And most of the people who could survive with a kit that small probably won't be restricted to a kit that small and are less likely to even be restricted to a PSK of any size. Moreover:

Well experienced folks who can get by with minimal tools are rare and they usually *never* get themselves in "survival" situations to begin with.

If I lose my belt and what's attached to it are lost, I lose my PSK. Otherwise, I have my main woods knife and water bottle as well. (Note: Get paracord belt.)

Having said that, you can have a pretty good fire-making kit that is altoids-sized, and add a PSK knife, "coin" LED, flat whistle, and spool of 12 yards of dental floss. I used a Sucrets box as a "tinder box" until the hinges broke beyond fixing.

I hate it when people say the best survival knife is the one you have with you but it is very true, this logic can also be applied to a Survival kit.

I hate it too, but what logic, bro? There may be no single "best" survival knife in any meaningful sense, but there are hundreds that are pretty awful for that role. This "logic" is equal to the "logic" that the "best" hiking footwear are what you have on at any given time (Try Corfram wing-tips.) or the "best" vehicle is always the one you are driving at any given time. What you have is all you have, but you could make better or worse choices before you get "there," such as leaving the S&W "Cuttin' Horse" behind in favor of any of hundreds of other, better knives.

But if it gets too big it risks getting left behind.

Governing wisdom.

Furthermore, if the only knife that you have with you is so tiny that it fits in an Altoids tin, then you really don't have the tools you need to construct shelter in the backcountry, imo (though in the frontcountry I'm sure you could scavenge/cobble something together). You also do not really have a viable way of processing wood for a fire, so you are limited to whatever you can scavenge, another one of the 4 critical considerations.

The Altoids knife turns out to be pretty tiring way to process wood, and I have tried four fixed and a dozen folders that fit the arbitrary Altoids standard. Not sure how those who make all the videos do it 'cause we typically don't see the whole process by which the 4" knife reduces the oak to tiny splinters. Handles? Whether I would be able in a harsh reality to rig a handle to get more leverage is an unknown. How harsh will it be? (And was all that paracord in the Altoids tin? If so, I missed it.) But, as noted, I regard the PSK as a supplement to my main knife, although strange things do happen.

It really always comes down to *knowing* and not having..... Knowing what to do or having the *confident* ability to adapt (and overcome....) is the most significant "survival kit" and not simply *having (possessing)* the right tools because having/possessing does not guarantee the ability to use.

Knowledge is power. Ignorance can surely kill. Adaptation, like improvising, is important. But if the number who could make it on Altoids stuff is small, the number who could make it with no stuff is smaller - much smaller. And how many a willing to learn how to make a drill and bow set from scratch and consistently be able to start a fire with it? How many Doc's/1000?

In principle, i agree with oft quoted, "the more you know the less you carry" idiom.

In principle, I reject that idea if meant in anything like a literal sense. Survival being Pass/Fail, knowing how to do with less (and less and less) is not, at some point, a logical reason to fail to have some minimal gear that you know how to use from actual experience. Sorta like:

My personal approach is to have a EDC pack (yup, about 30lbs) with my essential tools and fire-making supplies with me *always*