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Bad Survive! Deserves A Permanent Post In The Hall Of Shame

Discussion in 'FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!' started by ncrockclimb, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. ncrockclimb

    ncrockclimb

    Nov 20, 2014
    At the beginning of August @shinyedges compiled a comprehensive overview of Survive! Knives and the deeply troubling way that they have done business since at least 2013. Here is a link to that thread.

    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/survive-knives-forum-should-be-closed.1613828/

    Despite not having fulfilled orders taken in 2015, Survive! recently posted (and then deleted the comment) on Instagram that they will be selling knives again soon. I think that it is important that people get a full picture of Survive! Knives' history of providing inaccurate information and taking over 3 years to produce simple production knives. With all that in mind, I think that @shinyedges post should be moved to the GBU forum and made permanent.

    @Spark and @Boru13 what do you think?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2018
  2. Jondllas311

    Jondllas311 Gold Member Gold Member

    132
    Dec 2, 2014
    From their website in the "How to Buy" section:
    • Next Monthly Sale: After a year of not listing any knives for sale, on September 14th at 1pm MT there will be a very, very limited number of GSO-2.7 Factory 2nds and GSO-4.1 Factory 2nds available.
    So it sounds like they have already resumed selling knives before filling their backlog.

    Also from their website:
    • Monthly Sales Information: The monthly sales will be available one day a month, on a random day and time. At the time of sale the knives are built and on the schedule to be sharpened and shipped within 30 days, unless otherwise noted. Check this How to Buy page to know when knives are being listed and what models will be available.
    So even the knives offered in their monthly sales aren't complete and may take up to 30 days to ship. At least they're consistent! :)
     
    Mike Pierson likes this.
  3. NCCNC

    NCCNC

    Jan 26, 2013
    They must be running out of money again. BUMS!!!
     
  4. Boru13

    Boru13 Super Moderator Staff Member Super Mod Moderator

    956
    Apr 25, 2000
    @ncrockclimb

    Done

    I had to edit the link in your original post after the move to HOS.
     
    Chris*33, WValtakis, palonej and 5 others like this.
  5. Foghorn Leghorn Fan

    Foghorn Leghorn Fan Platinum Member Platinum Member

    653
    Jul 27, 2011
    Factory seconds available for purchase before all 2015, 2016, 2017 & 2018 orders are fulfilled ?

    The Hall of Shame is where these con artists belong, that being said they are still in business due to the old saying "there is a sucker born every minute".
     
  6. braillediver

    braillediver Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    How long can a business survive without cash flow? The longer they take to make the knives already paid for results in a lower profit margin per knife and probably leads to a loss when finally produced.

    After all these years if Survive! can't accurately forecast how long it'll take to produce everything on their plate they're incompetent and or thieves. Either way they shouldn't be allowed to take peoples money to finance a poorly run Ponzi scheme.
     
    stonproject likes this.
  7. bikerector

    bikerector Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 16, 2016
    I'm not advocating for the company because I have no skin in the game but wouldn't factory 2nds make sense to be available despite not fulfilling orders for customers because they are essentially failed attempts at making "1sts" and thus shouldn't be sent to the customers expecting a "1st" quality of production? It just seems like the 2nds would be sitting around doing nothing otherwise since they shouldn't be going to the regular customer so why not sell them. Unless I'm not understanding the situation correctly.
     
    CPP likes this.
  8. braillediver

    braillediver Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 6, 2007
    There's only so many hours in the day and hands available to work. Every hour spent working on seconds takes away from working on 1sts that were paid for years in advance.

    IF a big- IF they had a plan and knew they could clear out the backlog in 1 year at 70% effort then the other 30% effort could go towards processing the Seconds. As it is there's no reasonable time frame to complete delivery of the Pre=Paid Knives and the Seconds have been running about a year for delivery.
     
    Night Rider and LX_Emergency like this.
  9. bikerector

    bikerector Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 16, 2016
    I see your point here, so you're saying if they mess up and a 2nd is made, like a scratched blade or something happens, they should simply set it to the side as WIP and start on a new knife.

    Maybe I don't understand the process, you wouldn't start out at the beginning of production with the idea that a 2nd is what you're trying to make would you? Like there's a handful of scratched blades in the bin and you decide to put handles on those instead of going after the 1sts.

    I guess I'm all about holding them accountable for being butt holes but it seems like if a 2nd is made from out-of-spec production of what was intended to be a 1st then I don't see the problem and think they absolutely should get rid of them if the money could speed up the process of getting orders filled. Crucify them for what they actually sucked at, not for trying to liquidate the blemished stuff which has no actual impact on fulfilling orders. But, I may not understand their operations correctly. In the operations I've worked in, QA deviations would be discounted, given away, or disposed of and all of those actions would have no impact on getting more good product out the door. It's basically sunk costs.

    Probably a moot point, I won't be buying any or supporting the company. I don't even look at the knives on the 2nd hand market because it seems like a tainted knife and there are too many good options to bother with sketch-ball knives. I was just curious on how selling 2nds was perceived as a deceitful move vs. actually being a good business move from my very limited knowledge of the situation.
     
  10. ncrockclimb

    ncrockclimb

    Nov 20, 2014
    @Boru13 Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  11. NCCNC

    NCCNC

    Jan 26, 2013
    It looks though that they are having WAY too many seconds for sale. I manage a machine shop that deals primarily in small batch tight tolerance work. If all of the knives there have sold over the years as seconds have been the product of poor machining or workmanship, they would have already gone under. Typically a bad run of parts will yield roughly 1-3 "seconds" per hundred. If they have 30 "seconds" available, you can see that they should have hundreds of first rate knives complete. "Seconds" are sold to try to generate cash which they don't have, also in an attempt to not post of customers who have waited years on their "perfect" knife. It's just another kind of scam.
     
    trustmenow, 4jlcc, craytab and 6 others like this.
  12. ncrockclimb

    ncrockclimb

    Nov 20, 2014
    FYI,

    Remember all of the times S!K said that things are changing and that there is going to be a "New Survive!"? Well, that did not happen. According to a mass e-mail that S!K sent today, they are once again selling knives that are not finished and not even in production... and they still have not finished orders that they took in 2015. Meet the New S!K, same as the old S!K...
     
    palonej, moshow9 and sharp thoughts like this.
  13. JJ_Colt45

    JJ_Colt45 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 11, 2014
    The biggest problem I see with this is ... how do you know a knife is a 2nd or a blem. until the knife is produced?

    I understand selling off an odd blade with an issue at a bargin cost ... but if you have yet to produce the knife how do you sell an unknown quanity of blemished knives and say after we have your orders the knives will be made?

    You can say we have 17 knives up for sale today that have minor defects ... or at the end of each month offer a sale of whatever knives were not up to par that month ... but how do you take preorders for blemished products that aren't produced yet? ... Intentionally scratch a blade? Mismatch scales on purpose? ... makes no sense to me.

    Anyone else see any issue with this simple question?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  14. rswanson

    rswanson Gold Member Gold Member

    654
    Jun 10, 2011
    I just got an email offering a chance to pre-order a GSO 4.5, purportedly starting production next month. Quote:

    "The Last Chance Preorder for the GSO-4.5 will be open while supplies last"

    Now, you can spin that any way you want but certainly some poor souls will order one of these with no idea it will likely be years before they can realistically expect to see the knife.

    I talked a friend into pre-ordering a GSO 6 over two and a half years ago and those models are no where near shipping. He's cool about it, just ribs me some but it's an embarrassment for me.

    What a shame.
     
    craytab likes this.
  15. Jondllas311

    Jondllas311 Gold Member Gold Member

    132
    Dec 2, 2014
    Sad...here's their revised disclaimer at the end of the email. Just more of the same vague promises.

    Before you place your order, please remember that this is a Preorder. The knives will be starting production next month, they do not exist yet. There is no guaranteed completion date. These orders will be fulfilled after previously placed GSO-4.5 orders. Also know that we do have an existing backlog that we are currently working our way through, which includes several models that are ahead of the GSO-4.5. DO NOT place your preorder with any expectation of a specific delivery date.
     
  16. rswanson

    rswanson Gold Member Gold Member

    654
    Jun 10, 2011
    That's flat out deceptive. I'd feel better about that statement if SURVIVE! would throw a blurb in there about how long it was taking them to fulfil those pre-orders. Certainly no one buys one of these (retail, paid in full, in advance) and expects to wait 3-4 years for a production, non-custom knife. This isn't a Randall made knife we are discussing.

    Allowing people to step in line and order a knife that will further delay the production of one that was ordered years ago...how does that make sense?
     
  17. Jondllas311

    Jondllas311 Gold Member Gold Member

    132
    Dec 2, 2014
    Exactly. No indication of the 3 year backlog or specifics about the number of models in front of this blade that is starting production next month. Here's the latest production schedule - also from their website. We can speculate all we want, but the evidence is pretty clear when it includes their own words and obvious lack of transparency. But hey, production is starting on this one next month! :)

    IN THE FINISHING STAGES:
    (In the SURVIVE! Workshop: being finished, sharpened, built, and packed up)
    • GSO-4.1: Preorders from June, July, and August 2015 are being worked on and shipped! We will be working on completing Preorders over the next few months.
    • GSO-7/7: Starter Orders are all completed! More Preorder blades are being surface finishing and built this month. Preorders from May 2015 are shipping. Preorders are being worked on and shipped alongside the GSO-4.1 Preorders.
    • GSO-4 Limited: Materials are all in-house and Preorder handles have all been microtextured! We are working on fulfilling the first batch of Preorders now!
    • GSO-3.5: Some handle materials have arrived and are being added to the machining schedule! Once we have sample sets of handles, sheath production can get setup. Some blades will be surface finished this month.
    • Weekly Sales orders are being worked on alongside preorders and presale orders (This includes Factory 2nds and Ugly Betty knives). The last of the Weekly Sales orders will be shipped this month!
    *Remaining blades, Factory 2nds and Ugly Betty knives will be made available as part of our Monthly Sales, as we come across them while working on fulfilling existing preorders.

    ***Please note: There is a lot going on in the SURVIVE! Workshop these days. We are doing our best to get through existing preorders, but it will take several weeks from when preorders for a particular model start shipping out, until they are all fulfilled.***

    IN PRODUCTION:
    • SK-3.5: In Production, completion TBD. Blades are in the final stages of production and handle materials have started to arrive. Check back for regular updates!
    • GSO-12 / SK-12: In Production, blades are in the process of being heat treated. Handle design has been completed!
    • GSO-6 / SK-6: is morphing from sheets of steel into actual blade blanks at the waterjet!
     
  18. ncrockclimb

    ncrockclimb

    Nov 20, 2014
    S!K says "The knives will be starting production next month."

    Who knows what that means?!?! Do they even have the raw materials yet? Do they have ANY CLUE about how long the production process will take? Will these be completed before the orders placed in 2015? The more questions you ask, the more double-talk you get from S!K, the more confusing and problematic their business model becomes.
     
  19. mlmcasual

    mlmcasual

    375
    Jun 10, 2013
    To the BF moderators.----------------------------
    As a previous Survive Knife Fan and owner/customer of 8 SK knives, I agree with the OP 100%. and concur on hall of shame. Survive explicity stated on numerous occasions they would be clearing out the backlog before focusing on new "preorders". We see now, that was a lie. Survive just started back up taking 100% Cash up front "Preorders" for a GSO 4.5 that dosen't exist.
    https://surviveknives.com/gso-4-5/?utm_source=SURVIVE!+Knives&utm_campaign=18fda4ca96-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_09_20_11_15&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b9305964f6-18fda4ca96-132566021&mc_cid=18fda4ca96&mc_eid=ba44862fe1

    It should be noted, this 4.5 preorder gets in line behind TEN OTHER prepaid MODELS that have not been yet delivered in full - 4.1, 7/7, 4 limited, 3.5, 3.5, 12, 6, 10,8,5.1.
    The Current backlog is at 3 years and growing.
    IF this isn't a Ponzi scam, I don't know what is. Absolutely stunning, and even more stunning this has gone out and not legally challenged as Fraud.
     
    Chris*33, Night Rider, Lozza and 3 others like this.
  20. ncrockclimb

    ncrockclimb

    Nov 20, 2014
    BTW...

    Here is a post the owner of S!K made in 2014 after having issues delivering knives in 2013.

    S!K has been saying one thing and doing another since 2013.

    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...t-here-reopened.1129652/page-26#post-13220475

    "...We are getting on top of things and quickly...

    ...All I want is for you to have high quality tools, that you can use and enjoy for a lifetime, not wait a lifetime to get them...

    ...This is a new year and we're putting our best foot forward. I'm not saying that we won't experience growing pains in the future but the worst is certainly behind us. We have lots of exciting stuff on the production schedule and we're kicking the standard up even higher....

    ...Beginning with the new site launch, you will only be able to order things on the site that are in the shop and ready for immediate build or finished items that are boxed and ready to ship. We aren't doing any more preorder promotions of any kind. Ever. Production delays should be our frustration, not yours..."

    The bolding and underlining are mine.
     
    JJHollowman and Jondllas311 like this.

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