Surviving Debt...

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Congrats on the hard work and the accomplishment. My wife and I realized our goal of becoming consumer debt-free in mid 2009. It's a great feeling, and we've set our sights on paying off our mortgage ASAP.

Not to sound extreme, but debt *is* slavery. I realize this now, and I appreciate how much money I "threw away" paying interest on what debts I accumulated in the past. I realize now how much further I could be (say paying down my mortgage) had I chosen to live within my means back then. Lesson learned!
 
Bushman 5, could you please clarify what the expected outcome of sending the letters you reference is? Are the banks seriously going to let you slide based on the letters? How is the original credit ap or the signed charge receipts not valid or binding? In light of the recent proof that banks are organized crime and the thousands of folks who were given loans they could not afford and as a consequence have now lost so much, I have no quarrel with anyone treating them as they treated us I'm just confused as to how these letters are supposed to work and why. Thanks.


your alleged "debt" with the banks/credit card co's, it is sold off to third party collectors for pennies on the dollar. These collectors then have your personal info, "debt" amount and try to recoup what they bought. They use fear based tactics to get many to pay. Its a fishing game, using fear and harrassment as bait, and many bite because they are scared.

note i said they buy they debt amount, but NOT the CONTRACT. simply asking them to validate your debt will send many of these collection agencies running. Thats what these letters are for.

it is a LOT OF WORK, and a LOT of legal jargon and research. You need to understand the Bill Of Exchange Act, you need to understand HOW "credit" is created by the banks < just that alone swamps many people, it took me three years to grasp it. The first letter i sent i was nervous. Once i hammered one debt agency and then another i got more and more into it.

I simply cannot explain every little detail here there would be hundreds of pages.

you asked about the expected outcome of these letters. The outcome is these agencies are ILLEGALLY trying to extort you into paying, despite the fact they do not have the ORIGINAL DEBT INSTRUMENT (contract) as REQUIRED under the Bill Of Exchange act and UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) . They know this, and they hope YOU dont know this.

many collection agencies after being unsuccessful, may send you a letter. It looks like its from a law firm. IT IS NOT, they are using their own in house "company" to SCARE you into paying. One simply needs to inform them that under the BILL OF EXCHANGE ACT, you will need that ORIGINAL INSTRUMENT OF DEBT (contract). again, they dont have it!

often by this point they simply RE-SELL your details & "debt" amount to another agency and move onto easier prey. I have not had collection calls or action against me in many years. At this time i am legally dealing with TransUnion & Equifax to delete the entries made against me, as they were fraudulent. I own a house, truck, and if i wanted to get a loan i can get a loan. (i dont want or need )
 
your alleged "debt" with the banks/credit card co's, it is sold off to third party collectors for pennies on the dollar. These collectors then have your personal info, "debt" amount and try to recoup what they bought. They use fear based tactics to get many to pay. Its a fishing game, using fear and harrassment as bait, and many bite because they are scared.

note i said they buy they debt amount, but NOT the CONTRACT. simply asking them to validate your debt will send many of these collection agencies running. Thats what these letters are for.

it is a LOT OF WORK, and a LOT of legal jargon and research. You need to understand the Bill Of Exchange Act, you need to understand HOW "credit" is created by the banks < just that alone swamps many people, it took me three years to grasp it. The first letter i sent i was nervous. Once i hammered one debt agency and then another i got more and more into it.

I simply cannot explain every little detail here there would be hundreds of pages.

you asked about the expected outcome of these letters. The outcome is these agencies are ILLEGALLY trying to extort you into paying, despite the fact they do not have the ORIGINAL DEBT INSTRUMENT (contract) as REQUIRED under the Bill Of Exchange act and UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) . They know this, and they hope YOU dont know this.

many collection agencies after being unsuccessful, may send you a letter. It looks like its from a law firm. IT IS NOT, they are using their own in house "company" to SCARE you into paying. One simply needs to inform them that under the BILL OF EXCHANGE ACT, you will need that ORIGINAL INSTRUMENT OF DEBT (contract). again, they dont have it!

often by this point they simply RE-SELL your details & "debt" amount to another agency and move onto easier prey. I have not had collection calls or action against me in many years. At this time i am legally dealing with TransUnion & Equifax to delete the entries made against me, as they were fraudulent. I own a house, truck, and if i wanted to get a loan i can get a loan. (i dont want or need )

After all, having to pay back the money you spent is wrong.

:rolleyes:
 
i created that money with my SIGNATURE. One really needs to understand how "credit" is created by the banks.
 
I don't know if you were ever in the industry CP, but that's the best explanation of card debt management I have seen outside of the bank. And #2 is the most often misunderstood aspect of credit card score rating and management. Money flowing through your accounts in a timely fashion goes to demonstrate to a prospective lender that you are able to manage debt over a period of time.
Yeah, for a little bit with MBNA. Then I took a shower and got into a different line of work.

I would differ with you on this one, except the remarks on having the guts or being lazy. Or a half ass. Those are true. :thumbup:

No, it's still possible, but you have to do it right, and you have to do it in the beginning, or you have to start over. It's a matter of finagling your Dunn & Bradstreet account and raising your PAYDEX score, setting up an office structure such that it appears that you are running out of a commercial property rather than your home, etc.

One fo the tricks to getting credit at first is to use a small, local bank. Starting out with BOA or Citigroup is futile. They work in billions and couldn't give a damn about your need that amounts to thousands. The first few loans may only be for a few thousand dollars. A trick I got turned onto that worked to get started, is I picked a local, small-business friendly (do some fishing with local small businesses), then took out a $5000 CD. Then I applied for a $5000 loan and used the CD in their bank as the collateral. Take 2 or 3 months and pay that off. Then ask for a little more, etc. Pretty soon you can get $10,000+ unsecured loans. Another tip is to pay your accounts 10 or more days early. While this may seem counter intuitive to those used to companies paying as much as 30 days late, in order to get the interest accrued in their account before paying bills, it's critical to the small business, especially a new one. Reason is the PAYDEX score. About as good as you can get paying on time is an 80 (there's more to it than that, but go along with me). When you pay 10 or more days early, you start moving into the area above 80 (max IIRC is 120). PAYDEX is to the business what the FICO is to the individual.

Take out corporate credit cards. Some gas cards like Exxon, are pretty easy to get. Look to the above advice and charge all of your gas to the card and pay it off each month. DO NOT take cards that demand a personal guarantee. Reason is, it allows attournies to "pierce the veil" if your corporation is sued because you have a direct link between your personal finances and the business.

Take the small loans just to pay them off, if you have to. I try to make sure I have more than the amount in the account before taking the loan. Then there's some safe investments that have a reliable rate of return, and I put all of the money, save 6 months of payments in those investments. Then pay off the loan, early. Yeah, sometimes I only make a few hundred $$ on the whole deal, but the point is to build credit and, IMO any profit beats no profit.

And a big tip: DO NOT use your company to pay personal debts. Not only does it blur the corporate/individual lines, but may put your corporation at risk financially. If you are to the point that your company is making enough money, then pay yourself a reasonable salary, but don't directly pay your personal debts with company funds.



ETA: Oh damn, sorry, didn't mean to go into such an off topic dissertation.
 
Credit cards remind me of people who come home from Vegas.

You ask a person who is just home from Vegas how the did gambling. They always tell you how much they were up at one point. If you inquire further, they will tell you they didn't know when to quit and lost their ass. It is the very, very rare person who wins in Vegas, hence how rich the Casino's are.

People that claim (I do not have anyone in mind here - I don't know most of yall well enough! ;) ) that they pay off their credit card, if they looked at their statements closely, pay the Credit Card companies more than they know. They will tell you they pay of their balance every month and that they get money back - but we all know that the vast majority of people do not pay off their credit cards every month, and most get hosed.


Concerning credit score - I cannot think of a single reason why any place I want to work or do business with NEEDS me to have a credit score at all. Everything can be manually underwritten, or referenced. I have excellent history and wonderful references, I have NO need for a credit score at all.


That is just my two pennies.

TF
 
You're right: most people do not pay off their credit cards. Those that make minimum payments don't realize how long it will take to pay them off. To pay off a $5000 card at 8% interest (who's paying that anymore?) takes something like 17 years with minimum payments (going off memory). Credit card companies HATE people who pay off their cards each month. In fact, they're called "freeloaders". But companies make their money in the same way insurance companies do: by playing the odds. insurance companies know that most people will never collect anywhere near what they put in, so they can afford to pay those that do use their benefits. Credit card companies depend on the majority who do not pay off their balances.

Re: credit score.
You may not like it (believe me, I don't), but that's the way the game is played these days. Unless you only deal with small firms, you will be dealing with functionaries that only have the authority to say "no." They have specific requirements they have to fill to approve an account of whatever type. One of those is usually a credit check. Gone are the days of a good personal reputation meaning anything. The most positive reaction you'll get from giving those to most firms, is "That's wonderful! That will really help. Now, we need to run a credit check."
 
I question the validity of those ridiculous letter to creditors. It seems to me that the letters are not to the creditors at all, but to collection agencies. If your debts are with collection agencies, then you're already in financial trouble, or you don't care, or both.

I care about my credit score, and have worked hard to ensure it's accurate. Why should anyone who is concerned about their score even think about using those stupid letters? Creditors and collection agencies both report your info to the credit reporting agencies.

In addition, the logic that because your debt was sold to a collection agency nullifies your original contract is stupid. My mortgage has been sold 3 times. My credit report doesn't show that it was paid in full after the sale. It just shows the new lender. I'm still responsible for the debt...at least in the real world.

I'm not trying to be combative. The letters and the whole concept doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how it would work at all, and I don't see why anyone who cares about their credit report and score would risk the negative impact that such a dealing would surely bring down.

I'll pay my debts in whatever way I can, and watch it reflected in my credit report and score. I do want to be relatively debt free, but in an moral and reasonable way.
 
c Kyle, you really really need to start understanding how the banks create credit. If just 10% of the population could grasp it, there would riots in the street.
 
c Kyle, you really really need to start understanding how the banks create credit. If just 10% of the population could grasp it, there would riots in the street.

OK, maybe. That's not realistic, though. I have to live in society and by society's standards.

You know what else would be nice? If 10% of the population went on a gas strike, so the Govt. would do something about the price. That's also extremely unrealistic. I still have to buy gas to get to work.

Have you used these letters to success? If not, then why should anyone believe they would work? Please explain how the use of the letters would not reflect negatively on your credit score.
 
Also, don't reply with "It'd take up 100 pages to explain it...blah, blah, blah."

Paraphrase.
 
I am a bit confused as to what this is supposed to achieve. If I have a credit card and use it to buy stuff then would I try to use those letters to get out of paying the CC debt? If so then that seems very wrong - if I owe money then I would work at paying that money, it seems wrong to get out of a legitimate debt.

You are correct. It is wrong. In fact, it should be illegal. You know damn well when you charge something to your card and to defraud the creditor kind of makes you a walking POS, IMO. As far as the nonense about trying to screw debt collectors, you STILL OWE THE MONEY. I hope this clears it up. :thumbup:

That being said, I have started making a conscious effort to not buy crap just because I might need another one. When I look at my knives, my FAK, my BOB, and other stuff, I see that I have more than I could possibly use. I have also stopped the fast food thing, and cut back on caffeine, and I started hitting the gym again (I found out that I would go to REI "just to look around" when I was bored :rolleyes:) I am also limiting usage of the computer because that keeps me away from fleabay, amazon, etc.
 
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TF,

I apologize for helping to steer your thread in different direction by being abrasive against the "letters". I think it's a bunch of crap, personally, and irresponsible to suggest such nonsense without giving personal proof that it works, and offering no real explanation. If Bushman replies with good info, then that's fine; if not, that's fine too.
 
c Kyle, you really really need to start understanding how the banks create credit. If just 10% of the population could grasp it, there would riots in the street.

I understand how banks create credit and I still don't understand why anyone would use those letters. I do know that there was a political party in this country whose main policy was to stop banks from being able to create credit - I thought they were absolute nutters TBH.

I think that I have known how banks create credit since taking 5th form (ummm, 11th grade maybe? I was around 15 years old at the start of that year) economics. I had since done 2 more years of economics in high school and then first year micro economics & first year macro economics at University.

As far as I know the credit card companies would only sell your debt to a collection agency after canceling your card and failing to get payment from you. Pretty much as C_Kyle said.
 
If you make a charge to your credit card, and then engage in a bunch of hi-jinks to avoid paying it, you are in fact a thief.

Doesn't matter if every single employee from the CEO on down to the janitor of the company that issued your credit card are thieves as well, you are still a thief.
 
Quite surprised this thread is still running. It strikes me as totally incongruous. Ho hum, as it's still here I'll chime in anyway:

I know nothing of how your system works in the US but I'm well aware of the enormous amount of debt many people here are suffering simply from living beyond their means. I'm not at all sympathetic. It's a fairly modern oddity that one doesn't have to drill down too far back in time to get past.

Someone offering you the opportunity to borrow money you can't pay back doesn't mean you have to be dumb enough to take them up on the offer. I think it's largely just an out of sight out of mind thing. Generations past would know what a shark looked like and could readily anticipate the gentle thwack of bat against bone. You want to avoid that, don't borrow it.

I'm sure the culture of plastic has taken away from many what the grim reality of having debt can be like, 'till it is too late. And even then there is legislation to save people that have spunked up thousands they can never pay back from themselves by having great swathes of the debt waived in return for a pittance of a monthly repayment. Someone else will pay it. That said, without wanting to come across as too elitist, that mindset seems to go hand in hand with those sections of the community that are usually on the ponce anyway – areas where 1 in 4 houses nobody works yet they have for some inexplicable reason elected to have a great slew of children, and so on. The funny part is, drive through one of those neighborhoods and all the feral urchins are out in the street in the latest £150 kicks .etc. Wanna be bling boy has bugger all yet his parents will gladly get him this months Chav outfit on credit. Then they bitch about the debts they've run into. Simple solution for them – in ten years nobody will give a shit about how cool they looked on Myspace with their latest hoard of goodies, so stop buying unnecessary crap. Learn that borrowing money is a great thing when you can make it work for you, and don't do it otherwise. It's just another game RTFM.
 
ok, i'm not to hold peoples hands and walk them thru this. The basic info is there. sorry C kyle, but yes it would take hundreds of pages of typing every little letter, document, reply, and step by step action. I have spent the last 9 years delving into this, its not something you can post up a few blurbs about on the WS&S and be done with. Its labour and education intense.

someone (OP) posted about debt strategies, I posted solutions that have i and thousands of others have used with success. My successes were with vancity, citibank, mastercard & visa, and home depot.



I suggest the following resources for those who are interested in researching it. following up with Robert Menard of Think Free, and http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/index.php#Flowchart. If any of you are able to attend, winston shrout puts on excellent seminars on these topics.

boy tough crowd tonight......anyone interested in how learning about parking tickets? (which are in fact Notices, NOT a True Bill as per the Bill of Exchange act)
 
I think the reason that people show such an aversion to the "debt letter" idea is that it is simply glorified theft. Yes, the debt has been assumed by a third party, but this only occurs when the debtor shirks their responsibilities and the debt owner decides that they are going to cut their losses. The debtor is still liable, whether morally or legally is up for debate, for what they have charged. To suggest way around such collections is immoral, unethical, and pretty much sad and should be illegal.
 
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