So Gaston ruined an otherwise decent vintage collectable. Way to go.
I think 1988 was before the current woodchopping craze started, so the manufacturer wouldn't have even considered it.
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Synthetic handle Al Mar Sere Attack 3003b breakage
- Thread starter Gaston444
- Start date
So Gaston ruined an otherwise decent vintage collectable. Way to go.
I think 1988 was before the current woodchopping craze started, so the manufacturer wouldn't have even considered it.
No need for the language. This is the family friendly portion of the forum. Also, saying that you "prefer to squabble in person" sounds vaguely like a threat. We all have a searchable history here that can be used to determine the validity of our statements. This is a valuable tool for being able to tell whose claims you can get behind. Last, we are not talking a huge difference between 3/32 and 1/16. How do we even know he measured it correct? How did he measure the hardness, especially on the pins in the other knives? What other knives with 1/16 pins are out there? Do they fail? This is an almost 30 year old knife. Lots of variables here.
And to hammer it home, he was abusing the knife, to an unknown degree. What other knives would fail in such unknown abuse?
Point being, don't use your unwarranted, plastic handled, 30 year old knife to chop hardwood. We agree on the most import point here
Well, I guess my communication skills are lacking. Here is a direct explanation that should be easy to grasp.
This is the internet. Being here is not the highest priority in my life.
There is a lot of "experts" and "tough guys" on the internet.
I live in the real world, not the internet world. some people are the opposite and that's not my concern.
If some one disagrees with me on a forum, that's okay, it's the internet and I don't care. I just blow it off.
If I have a disagreement with some one in the real world, we deal with it person to person, and resolve our differences.
So don't feel threatened, nobody is going to hurt you.
Yes we do agree that a knife this old, and these build characteristics, should be used lightly. Or maybe displayed as an example of something that looks tough, but doesn't live up to its SERE Attack name. It would be nice to see a pic to back up the OPs claim though.
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Oh believe me I don't and I know. Just thought you'd like to know how that read on a page. I do agree, before pics aren't really helping here. After pics of the claimed evidence would....but only to a certain point. Still shouldn't be chopping with a 30 year old plastic handled folder.
I'll post it when I finally get the replacement camera wire in the mail...
The knife is very heavy at 11 ounces, so it should survive a little chopping, especially since the weight encourages it. The beak shaped handle end also allows quite a large swing from a knife that is 10" overall.
One thing to add is that the edge was redone to 10 degree per side, and the Aus-6 showed absolutely no damage from chopping even after 30 hits: I have observed this before from Al Mar's Aus-6 at similar thin edge angles: This is better than many customs have done at much thicker angles...
Since a liner lock's "Stop pin" and, here on this knife, the lock-bar's center pivot axis, will both bear essentially similar chopping loads, it kind of opened my eyes as to how much stouter are many liner locks are these days...: Even compared to the stronger micarta handle version, most big liner locks have a much stouter pivot stop... The lock-bar's length may even act as a lever to increase the shearing forces on its own pivot...
The knife carries very well in a horizontal position on the belt, with a Spec-Ops "Super Sheath" whose flap reach is increased a little with just a little extra Velcro added. I like the knife's design, its double-guard and its appearance of stoutness: I'll test one of my two micarta handle version. My guess is that the weight is just not repaid in actual strength, so it is an outdated design, or you have to only chop in a full grip that supports the lock-bar...
Gaston
P.S. And to be clear, it is the lock-bar's pivot pin that failed, not the main blade's pivot pin which is hugely strong and visible as almost 3/16" in diameter on both the micarta and synthetic version: The disparity between the main blade pivot pin and the lock-bar pivot pin is 2:1 on the 3003a micarta version and easily 3:1 on the synthetic 3003b version. Maybe the Micarta version will hold up if the pin is harder, but for such a hugely heavy folder the 3:1 ratio makes for an obvious weak point on the synthetic 3003b: Had this 3X thinner pin been externally visible I never would have bought the synthetic version. As it is, it is concealed under the moulded scales...
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Hardly matters does it?
Anyway here are the photos:
The edge is 10 degree per side (by REK), and note it held up much better than the whole knife(!). The chop marks are from other knives, as this knife could not do this much damage that easily...
Here is a comparison of the failed lockbar pivot pin to the Micarta handle 3003a version:
A bit of a crock really, as a similar knife with different handle "scales" should be mechanically identical, and this is a long, long way from being the case...: Look at the shearing action on the pin: That shearing action has a tiny bit of yellow colored metal clinging to it, because if you look at the knife's frame it is brass: So the steel pin was sheared off cleanly by the edges of sheets of brass...
That tiny pin cannot be hardened all that hard for that to happen...
Not only was the pin far smaller than on the micarta 3003a version, but on the 3003a the pins are probably hardened much harder than pins that brass can shear... I think this unacceptable shortcut was allowed by the fact the pins are not apparent (unlike on the Micarta version), so the "defect" is concealed. From who it was meant to be concealed I don't know. This is a bit like some of the Blackie Collins or the Walther P99 sheaths having cardboard side panels... I'll soon know if the Micarta version holds up better...
Gaston
Anyway here are the photos:
The edge is 10 degree per side (by REK), and note it held up much better than the whole knife(!). The chop marks are from other knives, as this knife could not do this much damage that easily...
Here is a comparison of the failed lockbar pivot pin to the Micarta handle 3003a version:
A bit of a crock really, as a similar knife with different handle "scales" should be mechanically identical, and this is a long, long way from being the case...: Look at the shearing action on the pin: That shearing action has a tiny bit of yellow colored metal clinging to it, because if you look at the knife's frame it is brass: So the steel pin was sheared off cleanly by the edges of sheets of brass...
That tiny pin cannot be hardened all that hard for that to happen...
Not only was the pin far smaller than on the micarta 3003a version, but on the 3003a the pins are probably hardened much harder than pins that brass can shear... I think this unacceptable shortcut was allowed by the fact the pins are not apparent (unlike on the Micarta version), so the "defect" is concealed. From who it was meant to be concealed I don't know. This is a bit like some of the Blackie Collins or the Walther P99 sheaths having cardboard side panels... I'll soon know if the Micarta version holds up better...
Gaston
Tenbeers
Gold Member
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The SERE folder was marketed basically as a folding survival knife back in the 80's.
As it's name designates it was designed with input from the SERE program.
It was generally considered to be a more heavy duty folder but to my knowledge I never once saw it recommended for chopping. I can't even recall the fixed blade versions being reviewed in that vein. I always thought of it as a higher end factory combat knife. I had one of the fixed blades back then. It really didn't have enough blade mass for a chopper. The knife was overly handle-heavy. The blade was tapered more as a fighter.
As previously stated it was considered a more heavy duty folder but I would have never dreamed of using it for chopping. I hate to see an old classic destroyed but it's the owners prerogative.
Intended uses aside I always thought of Al Mar pieces back then as collectibles.
Not implying that they couldn't be used but I always thought they were too pretty to beat up
YMMV.
As it's name designates it was designed with input from the SERE program.
It was generally considered to be a more heavy duty folder but to my knowledge I never once saw it recommended for chopping. I can't even recall the fixed blade versions being reviewed in that vein. I always thought of it as a higher end factory combat knife. I had one of the fixed blades back then. It really didn't have enough blade mass for a chopper. The knife was overly handle-heavy. The blade was tapered more as a fighter.
As previously stated it was considered a more heavy duty folder but I would have never dreamed of using it for chopping. I hate to see an old classic destroyed but it's the owners prerogative.
Intended uses aside I always thought of Al Mar pieces back then as collectibles.
Not implying that they couldn't be used but I always thought they were too pretty to beat up
YMMV.
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Just in the sense of getting your story straight. What else did you over or underestimate by 33% that we are not aware of?
Probably harder? You said before it was hardened and thus harder?
But yup, sad to see a 30 year old classic knife abused and broken like this.
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is it possible that the pin is rivet set in the micarta handle, and therefore has the same diameter? as to shear load, the edge doing the shearing is only as good as what supports it, so why couldn't some brass with no where to deform to provide a shearing point.
Its like someone crash testing a classic muscle car to prove that the don't corner as well as modern cars. Well, yeah, and do you want a nobel for that?
Its like someone crash testing a classic muscle car to prove that the don't corner as well as modern cars. Well, yeah, and do you want a nobel for that?
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Al Mar knives made quite an impression at the time. They were premium products with a premium price. Made in Japan with some real quality, new choices of steel, and a higher temper to give them real cutting longevity. Lots of new ideas were being put into practice. At the time ATS 34 was a new wonder steel!! Aus 6 and 8 top stuff.
I have several Al Mars bought to use at the time. The edges were keen and hard. But they would chip. No one really was into chopping, let alone batoning; Ray Mears was a young lad. You carried something like this for its cutting ability. Fixed blades were for heavy duty tasks.
Due to many Al Mar Knives being tempered on the hard side they could fail. Quite a few makers got it wrong at the time. Even older knives could break. Gerber, Puma, Kar Bars, EK, you name it, they weren't indestructible. Failures were common. It was the Cold Steel Master Tanto with its outrageous hype and San Mai toughness that really jolted the market. Its why there are so many tanks of knives now. In the old days knives broke; though most lasted as they were used the way they were supposed to be. Its only recently they aren't allowed to fail, but they still can.
At the time I knew of several Al Mar failures. In fact I've damaged a couple because they were too refined and I forgot to be more careful after using my other tougher knives.
My Al Mars are used for cutting, and a very good job they do. They are a pleasure.
All knives have a bit of luck built in. Some brush off abuse, another fails. So a pin broke! Doesn't surprise me, another pin, or batch, then it wouldn't have happen. Do get it fixed as the Sere is a fine knife.
I have several Al Mars bought to use at the time. The edges were keen and hard. But they would chip. No one really was into chopping, let alone batoning; Ray Mears was a young lad. You carried something like this for its cutting ability. Fixed blades were for heavy duty tasks.
Due to many Al Mar Knives being tempered on the hard side they could fail. Quite a few makers got it wrong at the time. Even older knives could break. Gerber, Puma, Kar Bars, EK, you name it, they weren't indestructible. Failures were common. It was the Cold Steel Master Tanto with its outrageous hype and San Mai toughness that really jolted the market. Its why there are so many tanks of knives now. In the old days knives broke; though most lasted as they were used the way they were supposed to be. Its only recently they aren't allowed to fail, but they still can.
At the time I knew of several Al Mar failures. In fact I've damaged a couple because they were too refined and I forgot to be more careful after using my other tougher knives.
My Al Mars are used for cutting, and a very good job they do. They are a pleasure.
All knives have a bit of luck built in. Some brush off abuse, another fails. So a pin broke! Doesn't surprise me, another pin, or batch, then it wouldn't have happen. Do get it fixed as the Sere is a fine knife.
palonej
Platinum Member
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Or.......don't chop with a folder!!
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Even if you are just carving tent pegs, you are going to be chopping at an angle to make the points, if you want to save some effort...
Often overlooked is that a lot of so-called "slicing" tasks are far more easily done with a bit of momentum. Slicing wood simply by pushing actually requires considerable effort, even with a thin zero edge applied...
The fact is the Al Mar's pin was so soft and small, it was sheared by the folder's brass frame...
In fact most Seki-made folders of the era have these soft pins, the old aluminium Spyderco Civilian even having one for the main pivot: This is pot metal you can actually mark with your NAIL...: Try all your old Spyderco's 1980s pivots, Endura, Delica etc, their pivot extremity will take a mark from your nail...
This softness means any amount of opening/closing cycles will eat the pin inside and loosen the knife: The current hardened screw pivots are a huge improvement...
I hardly see the point of an 11 ounce 10 inch OA knife marketed as "survival item", with a beaked end handle, if it can't be used for a bit of chopping...
Fortunately the 3003a's Micarta's pins are apparently not that soft junk, and the main pivot is huge. I'll get back here if it fails, as I have a spare one anyway.
Gaston
Often overlooked is that a lot of so-called "slicing" tasks are far more easily done with a bit of momentum. Slicing wood simply by pushing actually requires considerable effort, even with a thin zero edge applied...
The fact is the Al Mar's pin was so soft and small, it was sheared by the folder's brass frame...
In fact most Seki-made folders of the era have these soft pins, the old aluminium Spyderco Civilian even having one for the main pivot: This is pot metal you can actually mark with your NAIL...: Try all your old Spyderco's 1980s pivots, Endura, Delica etc, their pivot extremity will take a mark from your nail...
This softness means any amount of opening/closing cycles will eat the pin inside and loosen the knife: The current hardened screw pivots are a huge improvement...
I hardly see the point of an 11 ounce 10 inch OA knife marketed as "survival item", with a beaked end handle, if it can't be used for a bit of chopping...
Fortunately the 3003a's Micarta's pins are apparently not that soft junk, and the main pivot is huge. I'll get back here if it fails, as I have a spare one anyway.
Gaston
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Carving doesn't equal chopping.
So you are complaining that a 30 year old knife is not standing up to your 2016 "survival" standards so you broke it. Nice. You win. The knife lost.