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Synthetic handle Al Mar Sere Attack 3003b breakage
- Thread starter Gaston444
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I have one too that has done some work, though nothing particularly hard.
People did do spine whacking tests but not to the brutal standards of today. It was generally understood that lockbacks had intrinsic flaws that put limitations on how much abuse they could withstand. A lockback was a major upgrade to a slipjoint. A folding knife was to carry a keen cutting edge, that was it. If you wanted to do more industrial work then use a more industrial tool. The standard of steel gave the base limitation and from that build the tool to suit the application. The new locks as in Chris Reeve Linerlock Sebenser were in reply to find more robust locks.
Cold Steel was the first to mention stabbing car doors! Al Mar was a martial artist and advocated knives for fighting. Ray Mears was the bushcraft celebrity, off the back of Lofty Wiseman's SAS Survival hand book which advocated a large golock or chopper. Other publication were on swords and combat blades. Rambo initiated the "one knife to do all" survival concept (First Blood was an anti war film and quite good).
Militarily the combat knife had evolved from the WW1 bayonet and with the improvement is combat rifles firepower to the extent that by WW2 all that was necessary was a utility knife as in the Kar Bar. Today its the multitool to keep the ever increasingly sophisticated weaponry functioning.
New designs, new steels, new locks, and a steady increase in factory prices for superior products followed. Custom makers were doing it too. Today we are spoilt for choice. I think there is a backlash to the build it robust and some designs are getting back to cutting ability. The Y tube test to destruction doesn't help much as that puts too much emphasis on strength to the point that designs are too thick, unwieldily, and have steep grinds. All very inefficient and dead in the hand. On a fixed blade thats bad enough, but on a folder its ridiculous.
In the late 80's good folders were made, prior to that some good ones were made too. Probably today there are some that are even better, though many bring their own faults if you look hard enough.
If you just want to cut something, then why have an inefficient brick?
I have found this destruction of the Sere interesting. Al Mar knives were given quite a bit of hype. They are well made and had a premium price, but maybe they weren't quite as robust as the hype suggested. Then again every knife has some luck built in. This broken Sere seems to have little luck in it, another might have faired better. I like mine and not going to repeat the test. I'll use it my way and see how long the luck runs; I may get years and years of normal use out of it; or not.
People did do spine whacking tests but not to the brutal standards of today. It was generally understood that lockbacks had intrinsic flaws that put limitations on how much abuse they could withstand. A lockback was a major upgrade to a slipjoint. A folding knife was to carry a keen cutting edge, that was it. If you wanted to do more industrial work then use a more industrial tool. The standard of steel gave the base limitation and from that build the tool to suit the application. The new locks as in Chris Reeve Linerlock Sebenser were in reply to find more robust locks.
Cold Steel was the first to mention stabbing car doors! Al Mar was a martial artist and advocated knives for fighting. Ray Mears was the bushcraft celebrity, off the back of Lofty Wiseman's SAS Survival hand book which advocated a large golock or chopper. Other publication were on swords and combat blades. Rambo initiated the "one knife to do all" survival concept (First Blood was an anti war film and quite good).
Militarily the combat knife had evolved from the WW1 bayonet and with the improvement is combat rifles firepower to the extent that by WW2 all that was necessary was a utility knife as in the Kar Bar. Today its the multitool to keep the ever increasingly sophisticated weaponry functioning.
New designs, new steels, new locks, and a steady increase in factory prices for superior products followed. Custom makers were doing it too. Today we are spoilt for choice. I think there is a backlash to the build it robust and some designs are getting back to cutting ability. The Y tube test to destruction doesn't help much as that puts too much emphasis on strength to the point that designs are too thick, unwieldily, and have steep grinds. All very inefficient and dead in the hand. On a fixed blade thats bad enough, but on a folder its ridiculous.
In the late 80's good folders were made, prior to that some good ones were made too. Probably today there are some that are even better, though many bring their own faults if you look hard enough.
If you just want to cut something, then why have an inefficient brick?
I have found this destruction of the Sere interesting. Al Mar knives were given quite a bit of hype. They are well made and had a premium price, but maybe they weren't quite as robust as the hype suggested. Then again every knife has some luck built in. This broken Sere seems to have little luck in it, another might have faired better. I like mine and not going to repeat the test. I'll use it my way and see how long the luck runs; I may get years and years of normal use out of it; or not.
The only problems reported about old Civilians is a broken off tip and the kraton inserts coming up. My daughter has a endura that is quite old, bought used for $5. Pivot's going strong. Integral clip broke off, tip was snapped off due to abuse, serrations are worn down at least 20%, but it's going strong. Maybe the mark you are leaving is from your nail
I believe, for Spydercos, the change to screw construction is to adjust the action and be able to take out the blade for service. Spydercos with pinned construction have never had a chronic problem with bad pivots. Same with the Cold Steel Voyager line, this was Seki made with pinned construction, they are notoriously strong knives.
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As I recall Al Mar was a martial Arts practioner and his knives were marketed as fighting knives, not choppers, nice job destroying a vintage piece of cutlery history. This destruction test did not help anyone.
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Those soft unhardened no-screw pins are actually common on Seki City made folding knives, especially older ones, and even some of the high end ones: All the early 1980/early 90s plastic handle Spydercos are made like that... My Aluminium Spyderco Civilian had a soft pin for the main pivot, and it was an expensive knife back in the mid 90s... The pin's metal is so soft you can mark it with your nail... On the polished micarta handle SERE they would have to be hardened pins to take the fine polish, so the micarta pins are definitely harder: No nail marking is possible on mine...).
Even the very first Spyderco Military had screws that were just drilled directly into the friable G-10 scale on the opposite end...: The screw thread did not touch any metal, they just screwed into soft synthetic on the other side... That was what was holding this thing together... That is even far worse than soft pot-metal pins... It is actually unbelievable, but fortunately it didn't last long...
Sure your 20 year old Seki folders are holding together fine, and so did my Civilian for 15 years, but really, there should be no place on a serious knife for such garbage soft pot-metal pins... It's just common sense...
Also there is no reason for the pin diameter to be smaller on the synthetic handle version than on the micarta...
I've seen $20 folders that had proper hardened screws everywhere... I think even some $10 folders have them... People who are defending what Seki City did for decades are just in denial: Sure, these older expensive knives are holding together, if without any serious test, but is that how they should be built when today even gas-station junk has proper screw pivots? Of course not.
Gaston
Even the very first Spyderco Military had screws that were just drilled directly into the friable G-10 scale on the opposite end...: The screw thread did not touch any metal, they just screwed into soft synthetic on the other side... That was what was holding this thing together... That is even far worse than soft pot-metal pins... It is actually unbelievable, but fortunately it didn't last long...
Sure your 20 year old Seki folders are holding together fine, and so did my Civilian for 15 years, but really, there should be no place on a serious knife for such garbage soft pot-metal pins... It's just common sense...
Also there is no reason for the pin diameter to be smaller on the synthetic handle version than on the micarta...
I've seen $20 folders that had proper hardened screws everywhere... I think even some $10 folders have them... People who are defending what Seki City did for decades are just in denial: Sure, these older expensive knives are holding together, if without any serious test, but is that how they should be built when today even gas-station junk has proper screw pivots? Of course not.
Gaston
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If by a serious test you mean chopping with a 30 year old folder to the point of breaking it then I think you might be using the wrong tool. A test is only meaningful if the hypotheses are reasonable.
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Gaston, you are quite right to question the build quality of older knives. Al Mar's were considered and promoted as quality made Seki products. As said previously Al Mar came from the martial arms side. This isn't the first Al Mar known to fail.
In reality knives were failing right left and centre from all sorts of makers. It was a transition time and there was plenty of the good, the bad, and over hyped. Expectations changed too, as well as use.
Manufacturers had been providing the market with the same old stuff for years. A lot made on the same old machines with the same industrial steels as used before. Very little innovation. Custom makers were feeling their way. Some looking at improving the steel and others on fit and finish. For a long time knives had had no one really concentrate on them. The public hadn't much questioned what was being offered either. The higher quality side was a bit of a niche market, with not a lot of people in it.
Today, we now have far more choice, and far better knowledge of how to get a better knife. The public is better informed and manufacturers have been forced to up their game or change their marketing. There is still a lot of average stuff out there but also some superior ones in every price range.
I'm not surprised, but your findings doesn't change my fondness of my Sere. I just know it might not quite as good as I once thought, but still good enough to use if I'm sensible. Thankfully I have a few other knives to use too.
In reality knives were failing right left and centre from all sorts of makers. It was a transition time and there was plenty of the good, the bad, and over hyped. Expectations changed too, as well as use.
Manufacturers had been providing the market with the same old stuff for years. A lot made on the same old machines with the same industrial steels as used before. Very little innovation. Custom makers were feeling their way. Some looking at improving the steel and others on fit and finish. For a long time knives had had no one really concentrate on them. The public hadn't much questioned what was being offered either. The higher quality side was a bit of a niche market, with not a lot of people in it.
Today, we now have far more choice, and far better knowledge of how to get a better knife. The public is better informed and manufacturers have been forced to up their game or change their marketing. There is still a lot of average stuff out there but also some superior ones in every price range.
I'm not surprised, but your findings doesn't change my fondness of my Sere. I just know it might not quite as good as I once thought, but still good enough to use if I'm sensible. Thankfully I have a few other knives to use too.
Destruction testing such a knife is a very academic thing to do, since they can't be bought new now. It doesn't answer the practical question " is knife A tough enough for me?"
I can see some value in putting a few current production knives through some tough, comparable tests, to see which excel. But doing that to a vintage knife has no practical explanation.
I can see some value in putting a few current production knives through some tough, comparable tests, to see which excel. But doing that to a vintage knife has no practical explanation.
Fakeducci
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I think maybe it may in retrospect. I want to see him do this test to his Lile Hollow handle knife. It may not last as long as this folding knife. Those were not tough knives. But neat knives for being a Rambo pretender.
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I always thought it was a combat knife... So wouldn't Cold Steel's ridiculous car hood test have been more relevant to the knifes intended use?
I agree that a larger, hardened pin would have been better under any use, but I also kind of agree that complaining about its failure in a chopping test is a bit like complaining about a hack saw failing to fell a redwood. While a similar task, it's just not what that tool's for.
I agree that a larger, hardened pin would have been better under any use, but I also kind of agree that complaining about its failure in a chopping test is a bit like complaining about a hack saw failing to fell a redwood. While a similar task, it's just not what that tool's for.