Tactical Cheese

You have some good points, but I'm talking about perceptions more than histories. Eastern arts tend to be precievd as something, and being that this something is much different from Western arts, it tends to cause confusion.

FMA is another matter. We have the Spanish side of this equation pretty well documented, but the Filipino side doesn't really have much documentation till modern times, so there's no way to irrefutable prove anything one way or another.

Suffice it to say, the style of knife fighting taught in Escrima was first documented in the West, Escrima is a Spanish term for fighting arts coming from the German root "skirmjan", and that we have two groups of people intermarying and living with eachother for a real long time.

Just like how there's Moorish influence in Spain.
 
Well, you're right, not likely have been the occupying forces.

The knife arts in Escrima are specificaly what I am refering to, as they are what I have seen the most of in FMA, and they do bear a marked similarity to what is done in Spain.

I sincerely doubt that the garrisons would have tought the native Filipinos these arts, as they are not military arts, but those of commoners.

The Spanish surnames most frequently encountered in the Filipines are names of commoners, not nobility. It is known that there was much intermarying, and it is my belief that the vehicle of transmition was the father teaching his sons how to handle himself in a scrap, much as modern fathers do to this day. At least where I'm from.

As I understand it, the Pinoy weren't using knives as weapons before the arrival of the Spaniards, prefering the iron-tipped stick. In context it would make sense for the existing knife art to catch on.

As far as the form being the documentation, the problem is you only know what has recently been taught, not the ancient forms.

Of course, this is all, and always will be, based on circumstantial evidence.

You and me are just having a conversation, so don't take it the wrong way, but I remember not too long ago it was popular to believe that the Western arts, particular those that use swords, were based on Asian systems, and with no documented evidence to support that position whatsoever, and ignoring the fact that the Western swords handle quite differently than the bulk of the Eastern weapons, and the fact that there was extensive documentation of historical forms that aren't really all to similar to the Asian systems.

Yet to suggest that an Asian system might have a Western influence is heresy.

Not to you and I perhaps, but to many. I don't see it as a case of "we got here first so we're better", but more like relatives. As relatives we can help eachother out. I related recently how a factoid dropped by an FMA-er friend of mine helped explain something that didn't compute to me when translating Manual del Baratero in DannyC's "selecting a balisong" or however its titled thread.

Actualy, this stuff has nothing to do with the original intent of this post whatsoever, but I've never been one to begrudge constructive topic drift. Besides, I think the original topic has already played itself out...
 
For what it's worth,

Cracker Barrel brand, with its unique aged taste and re-sealable zip-tight bag is my first choice in tactical cheeses. Official cheese of the Navy SEALs!

-Drew
 
Not much to add but.

I wouldn't say it's a heresy to say an Asian system has Western influence. The pisser is to infer that the Asian system is nothing without or could not exist w/out the Euro system.

I second what Dave said. Wait, I've echoed his statements before. Oh my!
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Back to Tactical cheese. I like a good monterey jack and provolone myself. No really.
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I've said before that tactical knives and the term 'Tactical' is both a response to demand and an innovative marketing approach. So yes, marketing and advertising is a factor. How many ways can we show knives as non destructive? More specifically, how do we promote something that can cut? Remember that scissors are a valid substitute for utility.

Tae Bo? Brilliant marketing, beware the rumor of a 'Combat Tae Bo' coming out. It's not sudden, cardio kickboxing classes, they've been there for at least 2 years. One type is called Khi Bae. Another class is taught by Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez, former kickboxing champ where you do everythign EXCEPT spar like a kickboxer.

I try not to confuse practical w/ tactical items. I'd rather be practical and tactical, which should overlap with each other.
 
Man, you guys don't know nothin'! There ain't no tactical cheese that can defeat feta. One wiff of that stuff'll put you an your butt! And it doesn't require great strength or strenuous training on your part. One lesson and you'll have street-lethal survival skills that can stop any atacker in his tracks!

Actualy, there are many ways to use a weapons that have a superficial resemblance to eachother. Take the katana and a longsword, both weapons that allow a two-handed grip;

A katana has one edge, no point, and a curved blade. This shape works real good for slashing and drawcuts, but poorly for thrusting, and is incapable of false-edged attacks.

The edge is too hard to parry with, it'll crack, and it's got a diminutive gaurd that cannot be used to trap an opponent's weapon.

The longsword is double edged, wide, has an accute centered point, a wide gaurd to protect the hand and to be used for trapping and binding, it's got a tougher blade that can better withstand the shocks of parryig, if need be even with the edge.

This weapon is well suited to shearing cuts and thrusts, false edge attacks, binds and disarms using the gaurd, and the second edge also gives you a "reload" during an extended battle.

The weapons don't fight the same, and they neccessarily don't handle the same. One size doesn't fit all when it comes to swordsmanship.
 
Hello,

When I see "cheese" my french nose points in the direction.
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IMHO
There is no tactical knives but only tactical minds. Period.

A butter knife in the hand of an expert is a dangerous tool .
A Battle Mistress in the hand of some "tactical internet experts" is just a quick self destruction.

cheers,
JM
 
That is an extremely over-simplified view of swordsmanship.

Obviously you have to hit someone in some way in order to do damage. That does not mean it's all the same.

By the way, the binds and traps used in the West are based of parries, not slashes.

And you physicaly cannot slash with a rapier, or epee as you call it. There is no edge on those things. The best you can hope for is to scratch with the tip.
 
So the fermentation and development of pungent cheeses can be attributed to:
1. commercial interest
2. ego-ism (I founded the karakoumis school of deadliness), aka being 'cool'
3. good intentions of the not so well trained (really derived from the above 2)
4. ??? what are other basic roots

Hey Snick, I can smell your yetistench from here in CA

give me money, give me steel, or kill me!

JE
 
I prefer my tactical cheese with operational crackers. Seriously though,the "real deal" has a tendency to endure while the posers come and go.A lot of the crap out there exists because demand for such info outstrips supply.Even a dumb dog will eventually stop barking up the wrong tree.Thanks for the interesting perspective Snick.
David

AKTI# A000150
 
Loud and clear Jeff, too bad so many people want to claim they understand, but are pink through and through.

Still, `tis sweet irony to see the groupies get their pockets cleaned out buying paraphenalia.

I'm honestly kinda suprised to find there's another one of us on the forums though...

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 10 August 1999).]
 
Hello,

Finally, I wonder how many guys here have been enough unfortunate to fight with cold weapons to save their bottom...

training and reality are mile away.
Reality is really really messy...

I will put a new thread !

Cheers,

JM
 
Well,

To me the issue of roots, causes, influences and such is only tangentally important, because realistically it all came from the same place. All martial arts are man learning to damage man.

And it all is based on a fixed number of natural weapons, natural vulnerabilities and a slightly larger but understandable number of tools.

You can either damgage by cutting or crushing. Blunt or penetrating trauma. I have only heard rumours about trans-locating organs out of the body.

I had a conversation with a guy saying that no matter what, he was going to practice with the wakizashi, no matter what.

And I thought that was on odd weapon to practice exclusively, since I have never seen a wakizashi laying by the side of the road or laying against a tree in the forest. Same goes for nunchaku.

I think that one should look at the world they live in and accurately asess what the potential risks are and how to deal with them.

Personally I take an interdisciplinary approach.

But I know what you are talking about with 'experts' and other such garbage. With smoke opposed to substance. There are guys teaching ninjutsu who's closest knowledge of ninjutsu is movies and Hayes' books.

Once someone said to me....

"5 percent of the people you meet are real, the rest are just extras in the movie" I like to translate that as not everyone is ready to star, they can at any time,they just choose not to. And their role as an extra limits them to superficiality, most of the time. They are one sometimes two dimensional, not three. So I do my best to focus on the best and forget the rest.

But sometimes you have to rant.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

Check out my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/kasperafck.html

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/index.html


 
When Miyamoto Musashi spoke of cutting he said.

"In the matter of cutting people down, there are no different ways in the world."

I think that there has always been and always will be the 2 percent. Our jobs as seekers of martial vim and vigor is to penetrate the chafe to the core.

MDP
 
Speaking of "pink through and through," this is beginning to look a little like a mutual admiration society. I begin to wonder about the motives of someone who observes "`tis sweet irony to see the groupies get their pockets cleaned out buying paraphenalia." We all enjoy edged weapons for whatever reason. This knocking others down to build ourselves up seems like the act of a wanna be. I'm sorry I joined in. It can be fun but it has a bad smell and serves no useful purpose. A "true" martial artist has better things to do then bad mouthing fools and posing for the forum. I include myself in this criticism. It's not a personal attack. I just think some of us need to be more constructive and a little less self-righteous.
 
Rick, that comment wasn't really there for the benefit of the forum, the member who it was aimed at will know what it means. It has absolutely nothing to do with knives or martial arts, except maybe the fighting skills of the Knights of Wotan.
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Although it's really about a similar subject, because the bad side of the tactical movement is akin to bobbies.
 
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