Tactical Cheese

Eskrimador, actualy I thought you were the one saying parries and traps were accidentaly discovered during a thrust, slash, or hit.

I'm not saying that other arts don't use parries and traps, I'm only speaking for the ones I'm familiar with, the Western ones.

The epee is used in sportfencing, and epee sportfencing is based off combative rapier. There are a whole slew of Spanish swords that bear the prefix "espada", perhaps that is what you were thinking.

As far as fancy gaurds go, the first trapping gaurd in the West was simply a straight and long crossgaurd. You don't have to have fancy, just appropriate for it's use.

The narrow gaurd on a katana is not well suited for binding.
 
Please accept my apology.

I think that I may not have been very clear with my "5 percent of the people you meet are real, the rest are jsut extras in the movie" comment.

I am not judging anyone but myself, because I would have to consider my self an extra or spectator as things sit right now. i am doing very little to accomplish my goals.

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Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

Check out my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/kasperafck.html

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/index.html


 
Marion, it's a valid point.

You basicaly got two options; you can either be cattle, or sit in the saddle.

A lot of people allow themselves to be herded instead of taking hold of the reins(sp?).

As for myself, I don't know where I am in that equation. I'm sitting on the back of the horse, but he's goin' where ever he darn well pleases...
 
Well now ladies and gentlemen, let's apply some of this rather good reasoning to all those yuppie "sharpening systems" marketed to do just what a flat rock can do.

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Regards,
Desert Rat

 
Once again I've been provoked to quote a passage from Musashi -- but I don't mind typing them in -- every passage I type in brings me closer to memorizing all of A Book of Five Rings.
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-Cougar Allen :{)
.............................................

Other Schools with many Methods of using the Long Sword

I think it is held in other schools that there are many methods of using the long sword in order to gain the admiration of beginners. This is selling the Way. It is a vile spirit in strategy.

The reason for this is that to deliberate over many ways of cutting down a man is an error. To start with, killing is not the Way of mankind. Killing is the same for people who know about fighting and for those who do not. It is the same for women or children, and there are not many different methods. We can speak of different tactics such as stabbing and mowing down, but none other than these.

Anyway, cutting down the enemy is the Way of strategy, and there is no need for many refinements of it.

Even so, according to the place, your long sword may be obstructed above or to the sides, so you will need to hold your sword in such manner that it can be used. There are five methods in five directions.

Methods apart from these five -- hand twisting, body bending, jumping out, and so on, to cut the enemy -- are not in the true Way of strategy. In order to cut the enemy you must not make twisting or bending cuts. This is completely useless. In my strategy, I bear my spirit and body straight, and cause the enemy to twist and bend. The necessary spirit is to win by attacking the enemy when his spirit is warped. You must study this well.
 
Some martial arts are very popular, real crowd pleasers because they look good and have smooth techniques. But beware. They are like a wine that has been watered. A diluted wine is not a real wine, not a good wine, hardly the genuine article.

Some martial arts don't look so good but you know they have a kick, a tang, a genuine taste. They are like olives. The taste may be strong and bittersweet. The flavor lasts. You cultivate a taste for them. No one ever developed a taste for a diluted wine.

David Koong Pak Sen

From Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do"
 
Now we know where all this "all martial arts/sword styles are the same" phenomenon is coming from. What a terribly simplistic view.
 
Hmmm...tactical cheese...

Might taste pretty good with some suburban white whine...
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-Dave
 
Snickersnee wrote:
>For instance there's a guy coming out with a book on fighting with the navaja next month.

His name is James Loriega.

> He claims to have insider info on it's use and history.

Where does he make such a claim? I've ssn no such thing anywhere. Could you please cite the precise claim?

>Unfortunately, he never considered that there might be some hopelessly anachronistic weirdo reverse engineered from U.F.O. technology and assembled from junkyard parts who has dedicated the better part of his study and practice to the Western arts,
particularly those of Spain, and especialy the navaja, who is armed with cultural exposure and reference works, including a
contemporary manual on the combative use of the navaja that is just about done being translated and is on the verge of release.

Your whining sounds like sour grapes, perhaps due to a dislike of what you may perceive as unwanted competition? I thought perhaps your other diatribe on this book was the product of the indiscretion and inexperience of youth. I now perceive a hidden agenda. You make all sorts of assertions and accusations that you fail to support.


>The book is Sevillian Steel, you can see an interview with it's author, who's some kind of ninja or something,

So you're expecting people to regard as credible, the statements of a person who 1) apparently has no clue as to the author's background, and 2) has not the sense of common courtesy to address the author by name. You must be kidding.

>He lists so many documentable factual innacuracies or just plain fabrications as to inspire no faith whatsoever in him at all.

Let's see your proof.

>I am getting a copy of this book express delivered and will do a complete write-up on it.

Why bother? Clearly you've already formed your opinion, which I cannot help but find to be wholly without merit.

>It's possible that he actualy does convey authentic technique with fabricated background, but highly unlikely.

Just because you say so. Righty-O

>This is a good example of one form of tactical cheese, misinformation.

Of course it is.

>The guy thought there was no way anybody could call him on this subject, so wrote and released some hoopla.

The so-called "hoopla" hasn't yet been released. Talk about cheese... mercy.

>Unfortunately, few people have much knowledge of this area, and this guy will be
seen as a groundbreaking pioneer.

You appear to be lacking as well. That is to say that I've yet to read anything that would suggest anything to the contrary.

>there are also guys like this who for one reason or another are trying to make a buck or achieve crossover status regardless of the authenticity of what they promote.

I find it so amusing to read the apparent rantings of people who think they know the designs and thoughts of others. You accuse with no evidence other than your opinion. If you knew just how sadly you embarass yourself here, you might be moved to resolve never again to venture out in public without a paper bag upon your head. Get a grip. You really need one badly. A clue would be good, too, while you're at it. Sheesh.

Unfortunately, all to often the people who don't teach anything worthwhile vastly outnumber those who do.

Apparently you're gazing into the mirror.

-Andy Vida

PS: if it were me you were so defaming, I'd bury you financially for opening your ignorant yap as you have. You'd be lucky to ever have the means to do anything monetarily significant. My friendly suggestion to you is to hope that Mr. Loriega doesn't share either my proclivities for pummeling persons like yourself into near-permanent economic destitution or the financial means for doing so. You apparently have NO idea just how vulnerable you've made yourself.

 
osan, relax bro. Snick seems to know a thing or two about western blade stuff and paladin press does kinda jump on the band wagon with it's latest books. If the the author who wrote this book has written any of paladins 'ninja' books it probably is a bunch of b.s.
 
Osan, I don't know who you are or where you're from, and you may be Loriega himself for all I know, actualy that'd be cool so I could talk to you directly and see where you're coming from.

I can assure you I have an adequate background in the subject at hand, and have posted various tidbits here and there over the months I've been here that would back up my claims, if the search function were still working.

Since it isn't, I am perfectly willing to field any questions you care to level at me to the best of my ability.

If you wish to get a feel for the subject at hand, I reccomend getting La Navaja Espanola Antigua and Manual del Baratero through www.barataria.com , they are the best references on the subject I know of, and this is the only place I know of to reliably obtain them. You will have to ask for them specificaly, since these books are out of print. You will be sent authorized photocpies.

Anyway, some factual inaccuracies from the interview;

Navajas were not the first folding knives in history. Folding knives were quite common. Even the Romans had them.

Navajas didn't first appear in the 17th century. While the oldest surviving examples I am aware of date from the 18th century, references to navajas date back to the 15th, and possibly earlier.

The "Mysterious Circle" isn't part of navaja training as it's precepts do not mesh well with knives. It was a system designed for Spanish rapier work and is stand-off oriented, not very good at all belly to belly. Additionaly, the "mysticism" refered to only developed in certain civilian rapier schools, and wasn't held in high regard by their combative contemporaries, and indeed is quite different from what Carranza taught.

The rapier, and the "Mysterious Circle" were the realm of the nobleman. The navaja was disdained by the nobleman, who carried swords up into the 19th century, and was used by the commoner and bandit classes, who were quite pragmatic and a long-running joke in Spanish martial culture has to do with a nobleman walking the Circle while a baratero comes up and jacks him with a navaja having little regard for his leaps and bounds and mystical belief inthe Chords protecting him.

"Acero Sevillano" is not the general term for navaja work, La Navaja is. From a broader perspective, La Destreza, or some variant, or even El Nobilisimo Arte de Escrima. "Acero Sevillano" likely refers to a particular style this guy either picked up or made up. Until I see his work, I can't say.

I don't want to really pick this thing apart until I have a copy of the book in hand, because Loriega may know what he's talking about, but just comes off bad due to the person doing the interview.

I have every right to be skeptical of work put out by Paladin Press, a publisher who's known for printing all sorts of stuff in the pursuit of the wiley greenback, especialy when I am not intimately familiar with the author, and only have some odd remarks from a brief interview that stand in contrast to all documentation and research I have/have seen to go by.

I will give the book a fair review, and will provide plenty of cross-references and comparisons for the layman's sake, when I can get my hands on a copy.

Nobody can financialy ruin me as I am already destitute. I'm not even typing this on my own computer, I own no vehicle, I have no permanent residence or steady work. Which is irrelevant because you can't sue someone for having an opinion.

Most importantly, I'm not affraid of "competition" at all, as I'm in this because I love it, not to make a buck. James Keating has an excelent series on the subject of Western knifework, and John Clements has two excelent books on Western swordsmanship. I am a staunch supporter of both ComTech and The HACA, and heck, even AEMMA. As well as any private practioners.

You're right though, that was a rather strong reaction. I have little stomach for people who spread falsehoods about the Western martial scene, I feel this guy, either by design or accident, may be. Considering all the b.s. and mythology surrounding the Western arts, I feel this is understandable.

Again, feel free to contact me directly via e-mail with any questions or concerns, or even start a thread. I don't know everything, but I share what I do know. I also have no intrest in misleading anyone.

I bear you no ill will whatsoever, even if yo are directly involved with this book or Mr. Loriega. I am just intrested in "getting to the bottom of this".
 
Somehow I missed this thread, but I'd just like to say I like chizpuf's post from the first page. I agree about SUV's. I'm surprised we don't see them flipping over sideways when driving straight the way they're going.

As far as cheeses go, I'll have to go with feta and motzerella...it's a close call.

I really don't know anything about martial arts, so I'll leave this part of the discussion to those who know more...

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JP Bullivant
 
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