Taking payment and friendly fraud

WValtakis said:
I would not do business with a Craftsman under these conditions/double standards...thanks for the heads up. I'm sure you won't miss my business, but those are my honest feelings.

~Chip
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You are correct considering I've sold 3 knives in the last 3 years to individuals I do not know personally and face to face. At this point to do not really market my knives for sale. I have had those few individuals contact me and we mutually agreed on the process. We've become friends through the transaction so one could say the option used was suitable. If/when I get to the point of actually marketing my work to the general public I reckon I would use other means. It's more of a hobby for me right now. It's by no means a business. I turn down more work than I do. I don't currently have the time for it.

SV-97 said:
Ah gotcha, sorry got that wrong.

I don't care about the amount of business you're doing using this method. Doing any business like that could be considered fraud because you're using PayPal's services without paying them for it etc. (You've agreed to their policy in choosing them as a payment service). So in an attempt to not get cheated on you're cheating on PayPal. Not cool. IMO the to each there own really doesn't have any ground here. You're doing your work and want to get paid and so do they.
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So I guess the answer to my question is you'd like to continue criticize me. Good on you!! You should sleep sound at night knowing you've put me in my place.
 
Kuraki really suggests the best methods. A cashiers check, and money order can be canceled after the fact just as a credit card. Document the purchase, save the buyers email, send an invoice amount and send signature only. That will give you everything you need to satisfy the credit card company of you sale. It's only good business.
 
SV-97 said:
Did you ever use PP F&F for business? If so it's possible they locked it for you so everything is business.
If not they plan on adding fees to non-€ transfers but I don't think that's implemented yet. The fee should still be lower compared to business however.
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I guess I'm not sure what you mean here. Couldn't selling scales be considered a business transaction. Or am I exempt because this is a hobby and not my sole occupation?
 
KnuckleDownKnives said:
You are correct considering I've sold 3 knives in the last 3 years to individuals I do not know personally and face to face. At this point to do not really market my knives for sale. I have had those few individuals contact me and we mutually agreed on the process. We've become friends through the transaction so one could say the option used was suitable. If/when I get to the point of actually marketing my work to the general public I reckon I would use other means. It's more of a hobby for me right now. It's by no means a business. I turn down more work than I do. I don't currently have the time for it.



So I guess the answer to my question is you'd like to continue criticize me. Good on you!! You should sleep sound at night knowing you've put me in my place.
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Sorry, I missed the question in my response.
"So what is your purpose here?"
My "purpose" here is to invalidate your solution to OPs problem, because you essentially advised to simply not hold onto PayPals policy, which I strongly oppose. It's just shifting the problem onto the next instance and not solving it.

"So far you've contributed nothing to the original post and only come at me with your condescending disapproval of how I choose to conduct myself."
In my first post I wrote what I'd do in case of such a problem. I'm condescending because people that do stuff the way you do honestly make me sick.
 
weo said:
I guess I'm not sure what you mean here. Couldn't selling scales be considered a business transaction. Or am I exempt because this is a hobby and not my sole occupation?
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Not exactly certain on their guidelines here but I think as soon as goods or services are paid for it's business.

And yes, sorry for kinda capturing the post.
 
KnuckleDownKnives said:
I have them make payment via paypal friends and family.
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KnuckleDownKnives said:
To each their own. Must feel like reporting a drunk driver.
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Knuckle Down:
I will add to the others that posting a recommendation for everyone to read in a public forum is not good forum conduct.
This is because it is a rules violation of Paypal, and a criminal act if you are a profit making knifemaker.
Such advice is not allowed by the BF posting rules, either.

Avoiding paying the Paypal fees by lying, and avoiding paying taxes by pretending you didn't sell the knife are both types of fraud. Reporting fraud is everyone's job in a society. If not, everyone will become a victim or a perpetrator. One of the reasons that no one sees anything when a person gets shit in many places is "It isn't my problem."

If the advice you gave doesn't bother you, that is your problem. If you advise other to do it in Shop Talk, that is my problem. Please keep advice to legal and proper advice in the future. Any response should be sent to me by PM or email.

Now, lets all get back to the OP question about dealing with a charge back.
 
I agree that PP FF would not protect you in case of a chargeback, in fact it would likely get your account locked down as has been stated. I use a different online invoicing company (Freshbooks) which uses several different credit card processors to process the payments (in my case, it's Wepay). The the point I made in the OP is that there is no protection really, in my research anyway, when processing credit cards. Sure there are "chargeback protection" plans and stuff that will help, but nothing is full proof and there is no chargeback insurance which will cover friendly fraud (that I have found...).

From my research thus far, a money order seems safest. After it has been cashed the paying party has no recourse other than contacting law enforcement and reporting criminal fraud (which would be easy to prove in our case).
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Knuckle Down:
I will add to the others that posting a recommendation for everyone to read in a public forum is not good forum conduct.
This is because it is a rules violation of Paypal, and a criminal act if you are a profit making knifemaker.
Such advice is not allowed by the BF posting rules, either.

Avoiding paying the Paypal fees by lying, and avoiding paying taxes by pretending you didn't sell the knife are both types of fraud. Reporting fraud is everyone's job in a society. If not, everyone will become a victim or a perpetrator. One of the reasons that no one sees anything when a person gets shit in many places is "It isn't my problem."

If the advice you gave doesn't bother you, that is your problem. If you advise other to do it in Shop Talk, that is my problem. Please keep advice to legal and proper advice in the future. Any response should be sent to me by PM or email.

Now, lets all get back to the OP question about dealing with a charge back.
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I'm going to end with this. My intentions are not to defraud PayPal. My flowing comments to SV-97 perhaps would have been different had he chosen to have a conversation about it rather than throw me on the carpet and have an attaching tone to his post. Sure I got defensive. Seen it happen plenty of times on here. Had he chose the route he took with weo with me maybe he could have shed some light on the subject he might be more familiar with (paypal terms of use).

weo said:
I guess I'm not sure what you mean here. Couldn't selling scales be considered a business transaction. Or am I exempt because this is a hobby and not my sole occupation?
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SV-97 said:
Not exactly certain on their guidelines here but I think as soon as goods or services are paid for it's business.

And yes, sorry for kinda capturing the post.
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I'm not very familiar with the exact rules of PP. My understanding was much like weo above. I didn't really see it as a problem as it was very rarely and a hobby. Now had our part of discussion happened much like that one did I suspect this hostile back and forth wouldn't be happening. I did ask him at minimum of twice if he wanted to change his tone. He chose not to. People tend to be more responsive to discussion when it's on the same level. Wouldn't you agree Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ? In hindsight I see now that it was a bad suggestion. Yes I was quick on the defensive. I've had a very shitty week and been stressed out with some personal issues. So for that I'll be a man and apologize to SV-97 SV-97 . Through some very shitty conversation of enlightenment I'll apologize to the forum for making the bad suggestion remove it and move on.
 
Well I think I'll just add my 2 cents, just so I can help clear up the confusion and help everyone make better(legal) business decisions. My day job is fraud investigations so I am just a tad familiar with the subject. Using Paypal Friends and Family for a "business transaction" (exchanging a service or product for some economic benefit, usually money) is not only dishonest and unethical, it would be considered a fraudulent transaction. Paypal's policies on the subject are easy to find. But really, any effort to obtain a economical gain using deceit is fraud, taking a longer lunch at work is fraud, taking office supplies for personal use or using the internet for personal use at work is fraud, etc. The more we all can increase or efforts for business integrity the better off all of use will be as a society.

Thanks,
 
I don't see a lot of folks chiming in that 'this happened to me" or happens all the time. How big is this problem really?
Everything we do has risk in it. It's about being practical. Is the solution more difficult to manage than the problem? Then you probably don't need the solution.
 
Having the customer pay via wire transfer or ACH is very easy and there is no possibility of fraud.

Fake money orders are being used more often. We no longer accept any type of money order, including USPS. You will not find out a M/O is fake for several days, including Postal M/O's cashed at the post office.

Chuck
 
KnuckleDownKnives said:
I'm going to end with this. My intentions are not to defraud PayPal. My flowing comments to SV-97 perhaps would have been different had he chosen to have a conversation about it rather than throw me on the carpet and have an attaching tone to his post. Sure I got defensive. Seen it happen plenty of times on here. Had he chose the route he took with weo with me maybe he could have shed some light on the subject he might be more familiar with (paypal terms of use).





I'm not very familiar with the exact rules of PP. My understanding was much like weo above. I didn't really see it as a problem as it was very rarely and a hobby. Now had our part of discussion happened much like that one did I suspect this hostile back and forth wouldn't be happening. I did ask him at minimum of twice if he wanted to change his tone. He chose not to. People tend to be more responsive to discussion when it's on the same level. Wouldn't you agree Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ? In hindsight I see now that it was a bad suggestion. Yes I was quick on the defensive. I've had a very shitty week and been stressed out with some personal issues. So for that I'll be a man and apologize to SV-97 SV-97 . Through some very shitty conversation of enlightenment I'll apologize to the forum for making the bad suggestion remove it and move on.
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Thanks for the apology, though I don't think it's exactly necessary, discussions get heated, it happens. Sorry for not starting out "softly".
 
We send out PayPal invoices for anything we sell. Then we do all our shipping online and attach the printed tracking receipt to this and it gets filed away.
 
I'm not a big user of PayPal or E-bay but my dad was involved in a pretty high end scam where the criminal was able to attach a routing code from the same zipcode as proof of delivery. Since he has been in the same small town of Colville WA for 25 years the postal people tracked everything and gave him documentation to prove that he had not received the item. It was very difficult for him to get his money back. My point is this story was that there doesn't seem to be a favoritism toward the buyer but probably a reluctance to investigate. To add to this credit cards do protect buyers. In most transactions like this it is very important to have good documentation. That said we often find out what we needed after we have problems . It seems like signature required shipping is probably the best way to go for any shipping that the loss will be difficult to replace.
 
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skillgannon said:
I'm not a big user of PayPal or E-bay but my dad was involved in a pretty high end scam where the criminal was able to attach a routing code from the same zipcode as proof of delivery. Since he has been in the same small town of Colville WA for 25 years the postal people tracked everything and gave him documentation to prove that he had not received the item. It was very difficult for him to get his money back. My point is this story was that there doesn't seem to be a favoritism toward the buyer but probably a reluctance to investigate. To add to this credit cards do protect buyers. In most transactions like this it is very important to have good documentation. That said we often find out what we needed after we have problems . It seems like signature required shipping is probably the best way to go for any shipping that the loss will be difficult to replace.
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I live in Colville Wa up on Williams Lake Rd. lol, small world
 
For some reason this didn't post after my earlier post????


In reply to the OP question:

I have a standard policy - If you don't like or want the knife, let me know and return it for a full refund. This policy negates anyone needing to do a complaint or chargeback.
I am the seller and it is my job to make the customer happy. They are the buyer, and if they aren't happy, regardless of how silly the reason may seem to me, it is their prerogative to return it for refund, adjustment, or replacement.

Also, I keep the quality high, and the price good. These also asure a happy customer.

In all, I have had two knives returned because the person didn't like it. One was a gift and the recipient didn't like that style, and the other was too small for the users hand. I refunded the first, and made a larger one for the other.
 
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