Talon Hole Use

SDS said:
Wuyeah, it is possible that the Busse was the inspiration for the knife that started all of this ruckus. I'd say it's also possible that the knife in question could have been created on it's own. The maker has probably seen the Busse knives but may not have thought about them while making this one. Often a customer will request a feature on a knife and the maker may not realize it is something like the trademarked "talon hole".

I make a knife with a similar blade shape to many of the Busse knives but I don't think I took the idea from them specifically. I'd say that this particular blade shape, along with most others, has been around for a long time.

The Busse lineup is impressive and the company does an incredible job of marketing a great knife. That doesn't however mean that if anyone ever makes a knife with a similar feature that they stole the design idea. Now seeing something like this on one of those Chinese knockoff knife sites would be a different story. I don't think those guys have ever had an original idea.

Here is the blade I've been making for awhile. Not nearly as long as the Busse lineup but when I designed this knife I wasn't trying to copy anything I'd seen. Just making a knife that I thought would work for it's intended purposes.

Thanks for letting me chime in here.
SDS
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Great knife and always fun to hear other's thoughts and input here. I figure if there is something that needs to be dealt with, it's best left up to the parties. I just spectate. Regarding that knife, the location on it may not be an infringement. I believe that Kiku Matsuda (spelling?) has a hole pattern similar that Jerry saw at Blade. I believe it wasn't a problem. This is just what I gathered, so I could be wayyyyyyyyyy off base here.


Anyways, things like this are always best left up to the parties involved and before we speculate, it would be good to hear from Jerry before interjecting our thoughts on the subject. :D
 
I love Busse knives and am inspired everyday by Jerry's design and marketing of his blades... the pinnacle of my knife making career would be to roll into Atlanta in 3 Humvee's carrying Horton Goodness for my customers!! I make a sub-hilt knife as well and avoid the front talon hole in my designs!!! Out of Respect! for a personal Hero.. people like Busse and Hossum.. MAN it does not get any better than that... Respect!
 
KnifeAddictAK said:
Anyways, things like this are always best left up to the parties involved and before we speculate, it would be good to hear from Jerry before interjecting our thoughts on the subject. :D
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Bah Thats what forums are for. But it would be nice to hear Jerry and the makers takes before we pass jugement on the knifemaker.

I've always assumed a hole in that location makes the knife a lot more versatile in a survival situation as a latch point, so I can see how other makers could independently come up with it...

And I think its interesting to figure out what the trade mark is actually for, what it would cover what it wouldnt...though I wouldnt to unknowingly help someone be able to profit off jerry's hard work.
 
cgd160 said:
Spooky do you own any Spyderco knives, because if you do, you should sell them. Spyderco has gone after others that have used the Spydie hole without permission. . It is also why Spyderco is putting holes on their fixed blades. Benchmade had an agreement at one point to use that "hole".

It's funny, I never for a second thought "I would never buy a knife from CR" (or any other company that innocently infringed on another's trademark) because he used the "hole". It seems it was the request of a customer. I don't think that is a problem, it becomes one if he tries to use it as a standard feature.

I really didn't start this to stir the proverbial "pot". I pointed it out because it's fact. What if CR knives produced a bunch of them only to get a call from a lawyer telling him to stop the sale of all "holy knives" - :D. People like you would have done him a disservice letting him think it's "ok 'cause we like you and the knife".
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Yes, Even the master knife maker Bob Lum needed Spyderco's permission to use that particular hole on a few of his beautiful folders
 
Uncle_Jarvis said:
Yes, Even the master knife maker Bob Lum needed Spyderco's permission to use that particular hole on a few of his beautiful folders
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The point is, Sal was willing to grant permission to makers who asked to use his trademarked hole for their knives. All you had to do was ask (and pay a licensing fee, I think). He still does it for Jens Anso, to name a specific maker.
 
SpookyPistolero said:
Just guaranteed I'll never be buying a Busse. :thumbup:
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I think it was wrong for guys to jump all over you for saying this, as you are entitled to your opinion, but I would be curious as to why you say this. Would you please explain? thanks.
 
idahoskunk said:
it's important to keep your talon hole clean. there's nothing worse than a dirty talon hole. same with the lanyard hole, it should be squeaky clean as well. the area in between, some call this the "taint" or "handle" should also be clean for a good tight grip.

all amounts to a safety issue which will be talked about in the next class. :thumbup:


.
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:eek: My first laugh of the day! You are a class act stinky. Thanks!!

I will jump in here with my two cents before this horse breathes his last breathe. In my short time on these boards I have seen Jerry go after a number of trademark infringers. I wouldn't be surprised if the maker in question quits putting holes in his knives from now on. :)
 
All my good friends, here and there. What constitutes a talon?

You know a smatchet has a hole:)
 
I wonder which sheath maker is going to run to the trademark office to be the first to trademark the Kydex hole covering the talon hole?

I'm not trying cause problems, but has anyone tried to trademark blade geometries, or features like blood groves or serrations? I don't own any Cutco, but I know zealots who make a big deal about their D or double D serrations? If so, I wonder if the bra people chased Cutco down and told them that double D is off limits. Since the Cutco folks seem to have cornered the Double D serration market, maybe they have it in for the bra industry.

I don't have any problems with Busse or the Talon Hole trademark now, but I suppose I could.

In the world of flashlights, Mag was king in the 80's. For nearly thirty years, they did next to nothing (consumer standpoint) in the way of new product development. Around 2000, LED flashlights started showing up, and within two years, some of them featured higher output, smaller sizes and longer runtimes than similar Mags. Instead of responding with creativity, Mag hustled to the court room and began suing companies over lettering on the outsides of their lights. They have responded with a few new products based on the old, but they are a good decade behind Surefire. in my pocket I have Surefire's E1B Backup - Two brightness stages, twice the output of a Double D (sue me) Mag, and longer runtime. I should also probably add it's roughly three times the cost of both Double-D Mags sold as a pair.

I realize we're talking knives. Besides the latest steel trend, knives don't change as quickly as LEDs. I still think there is a good lesson. If everyone is running out to buy some new awesome non-Busse knife that has a talon-like hole, Jerry has some options. If the Talon hole is the reason for the frenzy, I think most would understand legal action. If the new knife absolutely kicks butt, and also happens to have a talon-like hole, sue with care. Mag's lawsuits confronted a product that was a world apart from theirs, and in my opinion, they lost big in the end.

Please realize that most of this was written in humor. I have no beef with Busse's trademark or the talon hole. I'm just fascinated by breasts.
 
Spade said:
I wonder which sheath maker is going to run to the trademark office to be the first to trademark the Kydex hole covering the talon hole?

I'm not trying cause problems, but has anyone tried to trademark blade geometries, or features like blood groves or serrations? I don't own any Cutco, but I know zealots who make a big deal about their D or double D serrations? If so, I wonder if the bra people chased Cutco down and told them that double D is off limits. Since the Cutco folks seem to have cornered the Double D serration market, maybe they have it in for the bra industry.

I don't have any problems with Busse or the Talon Hole trademark now, but I suppose I could.

In the world of flashlights, Mag was king in the 80's. For nearly thirty years, they did next to nothing (consumer standpoint) in the way of new product development. Around 2000, LED flashlights started showing up, and within two years, some of them featured higher output, smaller sizes and longer runtimes than similar Mags. Instead of responding with creativity, Mag hustled to the court room and began suing companies over lettering on the outsides of their lights. They have responded with a few new products based on the old, but they are a good decade behind Surefire. in my pocket I have Surefire's E1B Backup - Two brightness stages, twice the output of a Double D (sue me) Mag, and longer runtime. I should also probably add it's roughly three times the cost of both Double-D Mags sold as a pair.

I realize we're talking knives. Besides the latest steel trend, knives don't change as quickly as LEDs. I still think there is a good lesson. If everyone is running out to buy some new awesome non-Busse knife that has a talon-like hole, Jerry has some options. If the Talon hole is the reason for the frenzy, I think most would understand legal action. If the new knife absolutely kicks butt, and also happens to have a talon-like hole, sue with care. Mag's lawsuits confronted a product that was a world apart from theirs, and in my opinion, they lost big in the end.

Please realize that most of this was written in humor. I have no beef with Busse's trademark or the talon hole. I'm just fascinated by breasts.
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That last sentence really helped me change me mind on what I was about to post in response to your opinion.. Nice work :)
 
How did I miss all this fun:D


How you boys doing??


Figured out who the "Hole" Belongs too? yet:p
 
What I can't figure out is...

... does a hole itself actually exist???

I mean, do we put a hole into something (in which case, where is that hole to begin with?)

or, do we cut a hole out of something, in which case... :confused: :confused: :confused:

And... if it takes two Irishmen 3 hours to dig one hole, how long does it take one Englishman to dig half a hole???

[SYSTEM ERROR: Cerebral Overload Imminent...More Scotch Required...]
 
Hmm... from my limited knowledge, regarding the business about a trademark not being allowed to offer an advantage, I was under the impression that it couldn't be a trademark if there weren't similar systems offering the same advantage.

Taking the case of the Spyderhole mentioned earlier, since other shape holes (like BM's oval hole, among others) can still be used to open a folder single handed, the round hole is fine as a trademark. If the round hole offered a demonstratable advantage that, say, an oval hole didn't offer, then that would be grounds for getting the trademark dismissed. I think I read somewhere that Sal asked BM whether the felt the round hole had any advantage, they replied that they felt their oval hole was better, so based on that (read: what the competition said) there wasn't any advantage. I vaguely recall something about some car companies having trademarks on various grille designs, they all give the car an advantage compared to cars without any openings near the front, but none do it in such a way that makes them superior to any other grille.

Question regarding the talon hole is, is there a way of doing something that'll offer the same advantages as a talon hole? If there is, then everything's sweet.:thumbup: If not, then there may be grounds for dismissal of the trademark. That said, I'm pretty sure Jerry has good lawyers who've been through this.

Now for a bit of a mindbender: don't any patents/trademarks for solid objects simply consist of an object with many bits and pieces taken from it? Or could you take it further and simply say that all you're patenting is a whole lot of sub-atomic particles? With software patents, are you patenting 1s and 0s?

It's the pattern that counts.;)
 
I want a knife made entirely of discarded talon holes.
Maybe SpookyPistolero would like to buy that :rolleyes:
 
I think we should all sit back, and have a good cigar and a cup of coffee!
Enjoy your knives...with or without talon holes++
 
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