Walking Man
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That's very true. I believe some of the early sheaths came with a hole in them for exactly that purpose.
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Talon Hole - Why & What for????
- Thread starter DWRW
- Start date
Another thing they have been used for is for a "pin" hole to lock the knife into kydex or leather.Yep, that´s right:
Pic by porcupine
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Dilan
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the new fashion of lanyards in knife cutting competitions is to lash the knife to your wrist via the ricasso area. the reason for this being that the knife will not swing directly into your arm as readily as if you lash it by the pommel - something that has happened before during competitions at blade.
If you are going to be securing a knife to your wrist for any reason, its generally a safer idea to lash it by the center point rather then the rear point if you are going to be doing heavy chops with it.
at least, thats as I understood it...
edit: erased having read through the complete post, and changed after this point
If your going to argue with choils - none of the small blades should have them. If your going to argue that there should be a distancing from the blade edge and gaurd or handle so that you can "sharpen to the very edge of the edge" - the choil should be a nick in the blade, not a visible noticable gap. The talon hole itself has absolutely no effect on how a small choil is useless as far as I'm concerned (and me saying a small choil is useless is my own opinion, if someone else has a use for it that is valid, then good
).
As far as it over extending your grip by distancing your index and middle fingers - you cant have a guard and a usable choil at the same time without doing that. and I like guards. I hate choils, any choils no matter how "usable" they are, but look at any knife that has a functional guard and a choil and your in the same situation as busse. if your going to say that 1/8" spread distance over something that has a small ultra thin strip of metal functioning as the bottom guard is far better then the larger busse guard because your hand is in more of a closed fist position, I consider that a general personal comfort issue rather then a serious design flaw. I say this because having a closed fist position when choked up holding the choil doesnt necessarily aid in the hands ability to do detailed work, it just determines whether your hand fatigues quicker. I hate them all together in the first place, so I'd have to default to those who have used the choils a lot in the "extended index finger position" to see wether or not it does actually fatigue the hand quickly.
I've used knives with no guards where the edge comes up to the hand and I hated it, it was straight up dangerous when greased hands. I've used the choil portion of large blades that had the busse rounded guard for "close up detail work", and I found it either equally as dangerous or pointless compared to gripping the back of the blade.
SO.... Honestly, I have zero problems with adding the "talon hole" to the guard - all of my problems lie with the choil itself even being there in the first place. The only functionality complaint you presented was that it made the hand position when choking up uncomfortable because of how wide the gaurd becomes with the addition of the talon hole. I say that the difference between other guarded knives that have choils is small, and the benefit of a safe knife to wrist lashing point outways this, since choking up on the back of the blade is generally preferable from what I've personally experienced.
If you are going to be securing a knife to your wrist for any reason, its generally a safer idea to lash it by the center point rather then the rear point if you are going to be doing heavy chops with it.
at least, thats as I understood it...
edit: erased having read through the complete post, and changed after this point
If your going to argue with choils - none of the small blades should have them. If your going to argue that there should be a distancing from the blade edge and gaurd or handle so that you can "sharpen to the very edge of the edge" - the choil should be a nick in the blade, not a visible noticable gap. The talon hole itself has absolutely no effect on how a small choil is useless as far as I'm concerned (and me saying a small choil is useless is my own opinion, if someone else has a use for it that is valid, then good
). As far as it over extending your grip by distancing your index and middle fingers - you cant have a guard and a usable choil at the same time without doing that. and I like guards. I hate choils, any choils no matter how "usable" they are, but look at any knife that has a functional guard and a choil and your in the same situation as busse. if your going to say that 1/8" spread distance over something that has a small ultra thin strip of metal functioning as the bottom guard is far better then the larger busse guard because your hand is in more of a closed fist position, I consider that a general personal comfort issue rather then a serious design flaw. I say this because having a closed fist position when choked up holding the choil doesnt necessarily aid in the hands ability to do detailed work, it just determines whether your hand fatigues quicker. I hate them all together in the first place, so I'd have to default to those who have used the choils a lot in the "extended index finger position" to see wether or not it does actually fatigue the hand quickly.
I've used knives with no guards where the edge comes up to the hand and I hated it, it was straight up dangerous when greased hands. I've used the choil portion of large blades that had the busse rounded guard for "close up detail work", and I found it either equally as dangerous or pointless compared to gripping the back of the blade.
SO.... Honestly, I have zero problems with adding the "talon hole" to the guard - all of my problems lie with the choil itself even being there in the first place. The only functionality complaint you presented was that it made the hand position when choking up uncomfortable because of how wide the gaurd becomes with the addition of the talon hole. I say that the difference between other guarded knives that have choils is small, and the benefit of a safe knife to wrist lashing point outways this, since choking up on the back of the blade is generally preferable from what I've personally experienced.
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I use the "talon hole" to hang my INFI on the wall for photo shoots. 
As far as the guard goes (where the talon hole is located) it is a must for me. I usually do not feel comfortable with a balde that does not have a good guard forward my index finger.
As far as the guard goes (where the talon hole is located) it is a must for me. I usually do not feel comfortable with a balde that does not have a good guard forward my index finger.
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I use the "talon hole" to hang my INFI on the wall for photo shoots.
That is very close to how I feel on the subject. I really like the choil myself as I like to choke up sometimes, and to me it just feels right. Others dont like it and thats cool too.
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Plus then we can call eachother some cool names:
"OP, you @#$# Rear Talon Hole, you!"
What would we do instead. Call eachother Riccasso's or something? Not the same ring. And yeah, I'm being a bit choilish. (GROAN!)
"OP, you @#$# Rear Talon Hole, you!"
What would we do instead. Call eachother Riccasso's or something? Not the same ring. And yeah, I'm being a bit choilish. (GROAN!)
The larger blades I think do benefit overall from the talon hole. So long as the choil is big enough to acccomodate the index finger they choke up pretty well. I have medium hands and have no problems choking up with either my CGFBM or LEFBM.
A benefit not mentioned so far is that the talon hole would make it easier to lash the knife to a stick to make a spear. There was a recent thread on WSS that dealt with spears and if you have to dispatch a hog (no pun intended) it's safer to have the extra reach.
Having said that I have to agree with the original post when it comes to smaller blades. My biggest gripe with the MS is you just can't choke the thing up: the choil is too small to get your finger in which then has to stay on the grip at least the width of the small choil and talon hole away from the cutting edge. This reduces the torque you can apply when carving.
I have to disagree with necessity for a guard. The Scandinavians appear to reserve guards for children's knives, the idea being when they are old enough to use a knife properly they get an adult one without a guard.
However the best argument against the need for a guard on a small to medium knife is the SS4. I think the SS4 is far more practical than the MS and it never feels like there's a risk of fingers slipping onto the blade. My ideal small knife would have to be a LMS with a full height flat grind, satin & snakeskin to compliment my LEFBM, with a choil in the same design as the SS4
A benefit not mentioned so far is that the talon hole would make it easier to lash the knife to a stick to make a spear. There was a recent thread on WSS that dealt with spears and if you have to dispatch a hog (no pun intended) it's safer to have the extra reach.
Having said that I have to agree with the original post when it comes to smaller blades. My biggest gripe with the MS is you just can't choke the thing up: the choil is too small to get your finger in which then has to stay on the grip at least the width of the small choil and talon hole away from the cutting edge. This reduces the torque you can apply when carving.
I have to disagree with necessity for a guard. The Scandinavians appear to reserve guards for children's knives, the idea being when they are old enough to use a knife properly they get an adult one without a guard.
However the best argument against the need for a guard on a small to medium knife is the SS4. I think the SS4 is far more practical than the MS and it never feels like there's a risk of fingers slipping onto the blade. My ideal small knife would have to be a LMS with a full height flat grind, satin & snakeskin to compliment my LEFBM, with a choil in the same design as the SS4
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I really like the bandicoot that I have and feel that it does fine without the hole, but I like it either way.
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SS4 has a guard. . .
Guards are good if you ever intend on poking the tip of your blade through any materials.
Guards are good if you ever intend on poking the tip of your blade through any materials.
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I'll have to remember that for Blade '08
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The larger blades I think do benefit overall from the talon hole. So long as the choil is big enough to acccomodate the index finger they choke up pretty well. I have medium hands and have no problems choking up with either my CGFBM or LEFBM.
A benefit not mentioned so far is that the talon hole would make it easier to lash the knife to a stick to make a spear. There was a recent thread on WSS that dealt with spears and if you have to dispatch a hog (no pun intended) it's safer to have the extra reach.
Having said that I have to agree with the original post when it comes to smaller blades. My biggest gripe with the MS is you just can't choke the thing up: the choil is too small to get your finger in which then has to stay on the grip at least the width of the small choil and talon hole away from the cutting edge. This reduces the torque you can apply when carving.
I have to disagree with necessity for a guard. The Scandinavians appear to reserve guards for children's knives, the idea being when they are old enough to use a knife properly they get an adult one without a guard.
However the best argument against the need for a guard on a small to medium knife is the SS4. I think the SS4 is far more practical than the MS and it never feels like there's a risk of fingers slipping onto the blade. My ideal small knife would have to be a LMS with a full height flat grind, satin & snakeskin to compliment my LEFBM, with a choil in the same design as the SS4
Necessity: not really. Desirable: Yeah, I like them.
Try stabbing your blade as hard as you can into something, especially with something slippery on it, and the added security of a guard becomes evident. Especially if it is done repetitively and fatigue sets in. I can see that a guard is less of an issue for light chores, slicing, etc... But I recently tested a MS on a kevlar vest using repeated thrusts and although it penetrated and did not slip I felt a guard, or at least a larger choil, would have been a nice safety factor. And, of course, it depends on what you are using the blade for. The shape of the handle is also a factor. If it tapers, and becomes thinner, towards the choil I see the benefit of a guard.
So not so much "need" as "desired". I am happy for the Scandinavians, being of Scandinavian decent myself, but I'll take my guard and/or choil. :thumbup:
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Darkaz: Plus their kids could probably kick my butt. But seriously, they have some really sweet knives that I plan on adding to my tool kit.
And they probably use them more often in their every day lives than I thus have no "guard issues".
But seriously, they have some really sweet knives that I plan on adding to my tool kit.
And they probably use them more often in their every day lives than I thus have no "guard issues".
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I used to cut open bags of hot wings at a pizza place on a daily basis. Having used a gaurdless blade (rat shaker), I will never do so again unless absolutely required when dealing with greasy cutting media. the ability for the blade to slip forward when any pressure is applied to it going towards your hands makes it very, very undesireable.
if your not giong to have oily/slippery hands, there are certain tasks where a gaurd is detrimental, such as wood carving and cooking. otherwise on a general purpose knife that will see oil or grease, I consider it required. unless the blade goes way below the index finger like on a chefs knife, but I've never found a blade like that that was good for general cutting tasks.
if your not giong to have oily/slippery hands, there are certain tasks where a gaurd is detrimental, such as wood carving and cooking. otherwise on a general purpose knife that will see oil or grease, I consider it required. unless the blade goes way below the index finger like on a chefs knife, but I've never found a blade like that that was good for general cutting tasks.
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Drat it, Dennis!!
There you go, calling me a Rear Talon Hole behind my back again...
OldPhysics
The main question is how would you accomplish the boomerang lanyard configuration without a talon hole?
mmmm-hmmm ....
How would a small hole get in the way???
Need a good finger guard on a hard use knife for sure. Like I said why not put a hole there and make that spot usefull.
Some use's of the hole have already been mentioned above. There are many things it could be used for.
Even if you can't come up with any I still don't see how the hole could be in the way
I am good with a "guard", but the talon hole makes the guard about .25" wider than it needs to be and more of a stretch for my index finger than I prefer. It also wastes about .25" of lost blade edge.
This is actually a good justification for the talon hole.
So, to me, if the blade is large enough to be called a chopper - say over 7.5", then maybe the talon hole is justified. I can see where somebody might want to run a lanyard through both holes to serve as a D guard to help secure the knife when chopping.
* Personally, I prefer to have the lanyard on my wrist for chopping and around the back of my hand to my thumb for many other tasks. Behind the hand to the thumb works VERY well to lock most blades into my grip.
But, the smaller the knife/blade, the more annoying the talon hole is. On smaller blades in particular, I like to have less stretch to the choil, more blade and have as much blade closer to the regular grip as possible.
As I pointed out the smaller blades in particular such as the AD, Meaner and Game Warden, but I also consider it a hinderance on knives such as the BATAC and the SJTAC as well. They are not choppers in my book.
.