Talon Hole - Why & What for????

[DWRW]

Just a bit of uninvited advice. Being that you chose to write "...... OK.... now flame away." makes me believe that you've seen this happen before. I think we all welcome questions, and even being a huge fan of Busse and their products, there are things I don't care for. That being said, here is my advice. Or maybe more of a request. If one wants to challenge an idea or design and it's elements, then just do that. Don't invite someone to take it to a negative. The question was posed quite politely up to the "flaming" comment. I don't feel that your opinions on this matter warrant flaming, unlike some of the trolls we have had visit, with no real interest in discussion or knives for that matter.
Other than that, I appreciate a challenging question like this. I haven't thought about the talon hole and how I used to use it in awhile.

Sorry for actually inviting "flames". I probably should have focused more on inviting "responses" whether for or against the talon hole.

I wasn't so much trying to stir things up as I just knew there would be some strong defense for the talon hole and I expected such defense of it. Such is the HOG way.

But, I was/am actually very interested to see what responses and justifications people had or would try to come up for the talon hole would be.

I don't understand this remark:

.... makes me believe that you've seen this happen before.

I can appreciate that people will have different opinions.
And I can sometimes appreciate that opinions don't even have to be justified. Sometimes it is just what we want.
I am sure the what we want vs. justified is common here


But, it is in my nature to try to improve little details about cetain things to try to make them how "I" would consider them better.

Unfortunately, there always seem to be compromises. More often than not we have to sacrifice something to get something else or vice versa.

I feel the Talon Hole sacrifices a reasonable reach to a choil and blade length for a hole that is rarely used.

I do like having a guard and I prefer a choil more often than not.

The Talon Hole just doesn't serve my personal needs and is more of a hinderance IMO.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't have a Talon hole and I would reshape the guard to move the choil closer to the grip and move the blade closer in.

To me, .25" is noticeable and makes a difference.

Obviously, others don't mind.

Such was expected. But, I still haven't seen strong justifications for the talon hole - especially on smaller knives. It is just there. It is a trademark. But, it comes at a cost in my opinion.

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[DWRW]

also serves to keep users hand from sliding forward in a thrust into object. if liquid (ie.- blood) gets on handle, grip could get little slippery. also in a thrust, the objects muscles and bones will eventually stop the forward progress of blade. if not for the top and bottom of guard, grip could slip in a struggle and slide forward on edge of blade. all combat blades from east and west coulters have guards. also if opponents blade slides down yours your fingers dont get sliced! combat baby!!!

It sounds like you have Talon hole confused with guard.

The Talon hole is the hole "in" the guard on Busse knives.

I like having a guard on my knife. I understand the benefits of having a guard.

I don't like that the talon hole makes the guard larger than the guard needs to be.


For the record though, I don't like double-guards on my knives.

The VERY Large majority of my knives are intended as tools.

I have a "small" handfull of my fairly large collection of knives that are combat knives for collection and appreciation purposes. And I can occassionally appreciate a double-guard on a collectible fighting knife that I don't intend to use. I have a few daggers that I consider attractive and nice knives, but worthless as tools.

I don't personally intend to go knife to knife combat with anybody.

If I have to use a knife for defense, I don't believe knife fights are scenarios with much blade to blade - Steven Seagal type action going on. Entertaining as it may be, I believe Hollywood has distorted what a knife fight is actually like. I don't believe a knife fight would last much longer than a close quarters gun fight and two guys with two knives would both likely end up in bad condition or dead - double guard or not.

If I were facing a person with a knife in a defense situation, I am hoping I have a gun or an escape option.

If I "had" to use a knife for self defense, I would probably consider a smaller 4.5" - 5.5" bladed knife to be my choice or if I had enough room "maybe" a Wakizashi or Katana. A few real fast tight controlled strokes with a small blade can do a lot more damage than a gun. Or one or two good strokes with a large blade and I believe the ordeal would be over. I would hope to be the one standing. And with any luck I won't have received any cuts with a knife because in a knife fight situation most any cut is going to be a major cut!


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[DWRW]

I like to hold it up close and look through it with my left eye, then through the rear lanyard hole with my right. The real world looks much better from an Infi perspective. It's just not the same looking through the rivet holes. Very shrewd on Busse's part. ss.

That was what I was thinking...

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[DWRW]

Necessity: not really. Desirable: Yeah, I like them.

Try stabbing your blade as hard as you can into something, especially with something slippery on it, and the added security of a guard becomes evident. Especially if it is done repetitively and fatigue sets in. I can see that a guard is less of an issue for light chores, slicing, etc... But I recently tested a MS on a kevlar vest using repeated thrusts and although it penetrated and did not slip I felt a guard, or at least a larger choil, would have been a nice safety factor. And, of course, it depends on what you are using the blade for. The shape of the handle is also a factor. If it tapers, and becomes thinner, towards the choil I see the benefit of a guard.

So not so much "need" as "desired". I am happy for the Scandinavians, being of Scandinavian decent myself, but I'll take my guard and/or choil. :thumbup:

Tyrkon,

I do appreciate the benefits of a guard and I generally prefer a guard, but I have many knives without guards that I consider Excellent knives.
I do agree that it depends on what the knife is used for and in many cases the shape of the blade vs. handle can be a factor in how I feel about not having a guard.

I don't feel that a knife has to stand the test of can you stab multiple hard stabs with it to make a knife good. I RARELY use my knives for stabbing. I use my knives for cutting. So, a grip that passes a stabbing test is rarely a deciding factor.
I do however, want to feel I have a secure grip so I don't expect to slide my hand forward for certain field tasks. The guard is a simple solution. But, often the shape of the handle or blade vs. the handle can somewhat simulate a guard or otherwise help prevent slipping forward.

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[DWRW]

That's very true. I believe some of the early sheaths came with a hole in them for exactly that purpose.

Mmmm O.K., but I don't see much benefit in that for my uses. Most sheaths are designed fairly well to retain the knives sufficiently.

I have seen a few bad sheaths and I have seen some knives that can be hard to retain in a sheath. But, if you have a guard, most knives are fairly easy to retain in their sheaths.

I don't see any really added benefit of a pin retainer.

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[DWRW]

I used to cut open bags of hot wings at a pizza place on a daily basis. Having used a gaurdless blade (rat shaker), I will never do so again unless absolutely required when dealing with greasy cutting media. the ability for the blade to slip forward when any pressure is applied to it going towards your hands makes it very, very undesireable.

if your not giong to have oily/slippery hands, there are certain tasks where a gaurd is detrimental, such as wood carving and cooking. otherwise on a general purpose knife that will see oil or grease, I consider it required. unless the blade goes way below the index finger like on a chefs knife, but I've never found a blade like that that was good for general cutting tasks.

I can agree to most of that..., but I still don't need a talon hole.

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[DWRW]

Did any of these guys answer your question well enough for you?

Maybe you should try another one, you'll get help with question on the Busse Forum, it's the Trolls that get flamed when they come in and try to start "a fire" and run off.

So far, I think the answers could help sell me on a Talon hole for large choppers. I never really had as much problem with the Talon Holes on larger choppers anyway.

My problem with the Talon Holes is mainly on the mid-sized utility sized knives such as SJTAC and BATAC sized knives and definitely on the smaller knives.


I don't know if I am a Troll or not, but I wasn't trying to start a fire and run off. If possible, I would like to create a consensus strong enough to get the talon holes removed from certain mid to smaller sized blades in the future.

I am actually farily active at the 2 Swamp Rat forums and over at the Scrap Yard forum (I am Knifeguy at Rat Chat and the Yard).

I don't honestly participate in the Busse Forums too much because the Busse knives cost more than I like to pay and I try to avoid the temptation

But, I have made a few Busse purchases over the years and the Talon hole is just something that has bugged me on most of my Busse knives. It didn't bug me much on my FSH (Big chopper). My other Busse purchases have been SJTAC or smaller and the Talon hole bugs me.

I would love to have more Busse's in the future and if funds improve, I would like to have certain knives coming without talon holes :thumbdn:

.... just my preference.

 

[stropper]

it is helpful to distinguish a Busse from everything else out there.

I take it you only just got interested in knives?



The talon hole could be useful in some circumstances, but I really don't need the huge choil to "allow for more detailed work".
With the well thought-out Busse handles, I see no need for them and i would prefer a little extra edge.

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Tyrkon,

I do appreciate the benefits of a guard and I generally prefer a guard, but I have many knives without guards that I consider Excellent knives.
I do agree that it depends on what the knife is used for and in many cases the shape of the blade vs. handle can be a factor in how I feel about not having a guard.

I don't feel that a knife has to stand the test of can you stab multiple hard stabs with it to make a knife good. I RARELY use my knives for stabbing. I use my knives for cutting. So, a grip that passes a stabbing test is rarely a deciding factor.
I do however, want to feel I have a secure grip so I don't expect to slide my hand forward for certain field tasks. The guard is a simple solution. But, often the shape of the handle or blade vs. the handle can somewhat simulate a guard or otherwise help prevent slipping forward.

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The knife I used for the "multiple stab test" was a LMS. If I was just cutting, slicing, etc... the guard would not be as big a factor for me. But as I was stabbing the medium I felt really nervous w/o a larger choil or guard. But I wanted to test it none the less and it did fine. Just my insecurity I guess. But enough "guard talk" as you are focused on the "talon hole" correct? Sorry for the rabbit trail. Now let's see what others have to say about the TH.

I do agree with the TH being used to secure the knife in a sheath. I used to have a sheath like that for an SH-E I had at the time. I have heard about the advantages of lashing the knife to a pole or branch but have not tried this yet.

Good question bro. :thumbup:

 

[foxyrick]

Time I added my views, FWTW. They agree with what some have already said. Some of my views stop me from buying more Busses! That also applies to other makes of knife as well. I only buy 'users' - can't really afford to just collect them for aesthetic appeal. Each to his own.

I tend to come in on this issue from a few viewpoints, mostly from a 'wilderness survival' angle though.


On large blades, used mainly as choppers, I like a good guard. I don't use the talon hole for a lanyard, but have put a D-guard on my FBM. I prefer it that way. So, guard + talon hole is a winner here for me. I mostly like the choil as well, as I find it does give a better 'close-up' feel when using the larger knives for gentler tasks like fuzz-stick making. It could be dispensed with but only at the expense of making the guard much thinner and maybe changing the handle shape to give a more forward grip. I say: Keep them as they are.


I have mixed feelings about medium sized blades (say, 5 to 7 inches). I really like them, having grown up using blades of that sort of size. However, my logical head puts me in the camp of those who think they are too much of a compromise to be really good. I would rather use a larger blade for heavy work/chopping, and a smaller blade for lighter work. That said, I still like them.

I definately feel they need a guard, given the 'do any job' aspect of them. Talon hole? I don't mind it but have never yet tied my knife to a stick to make a spear. I would say keep it just in case. The choil on these knives I'm not sure about. The smaller the knife gets, the less I want a choil and the more I would rather have more cutting edge and a smaller guard so I can get closer to that edge. I say: Guard+Talon Hole = Good; Choil = Hmmm


On smaller knives, which I tend to think of for 'bushcraft' type uses, I definately don't want a choil. My BATAC would be so much better without it. I still like the knife enough to put up with it though. My BA-III would also benefit from more edge/no choil. It's the one thing that stops me using it seriously as my bushcraft knife. I still like a guard or self-guard, or at least a shape that doesn't seem likely to put my hand on the blade. I suppose the talon hole could still be used as above, and I certainly don't object to its presence.

The choil is what has stopped me (so far, at least) from buying any more smaller busses, as much as I like the look of them and want a knife of that size in infi. If Jerry ever drops the choil on smaller knives, I'll be bankrupt within the week. I say: Guard+Talon Hole = Good; Choil = NONONO!!!


So, some knives that I own and think are just right based on the above (warning: not all Busses ) ...

1. Battle Mistress - need I say more???
2. HHFSH - still fits in the large knife category, so all's fine there.
3. Fehrman First Strike - as above.
4. Bark River Fox River - doesn't have a guard but handle shape works for me.
5. NWA forum knife - perfect! Wish Jerry would make one like it in infi.


All that said, I still love all my Busses whether I think they are perfect or not. I just wish my Hell Razor, BATAC and BA-III didn't have choils.

Rick.

 

[Ken44]

The Talon hole is not going anywhere. It will stay.

Time to move on I feel. If you don't like the hole there are alot of knife companies out there that don't have it. Good luck finding your perfect knife:thumbup:


I love the variety of the knife industry...enough out there to please all:thumbup:

 

[1kimo4u]

i like busse knives the way they are. i aint no engineer or rocket scientist so i aint going to second guess the people that designed them. i agree that hollywood fnife fights are fake (really?). knife fights have been documented to last long periods of time. no one walked away unscathed.(human body can take alot o abuse) Gun vs. knife. gun!!! knife fight, mine has guard and yours dont, say goodbye to your fingers! maybe a custom knife maker can make you a perfect knife. you buy a production knife you take what you get. write them a letter, maybe they'll change designs for you. bottom line is vote with your $!

 

[Thomason]

The hole represents emptiness. Once you experience the Enlightenment of Infi, it will all be clear to you. Jerry is a wise and mystical dude.

"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form; form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form."

 

[DWRW]

Foxyrick,

With a few exceptions on views about choils, you and I seem to have pretty similar opinions about a few things.

I have gotten to where I do about 90% of my knife use with a 4" - 5" blade and anything else requires a large blade. Mid - size blades trying to "do-it-all" just can't - at least not how I want it to. So, I don't prefer having only one knife. I am more often a two knife guy. But, a 4" - 5" blade knife comes first. However, it can sometimes for me be a smaller knife and a mid-sized knife or a smaller knife and a large knife.

So, your following quote is fairly close for me:

I have mixed feelings about medium sized blades (say, 5 to 7 inches). I really like them, having grown up using blades of that sort of size. However, my logical head puts me in the camp of those who think they are too much of a compromise to be really good. I would rather use a larger blade for heavy work/chopping, and a smaller blade for lighter work. That said, I still like them.

Rick.

I still love mid-sized knives, but they are somewhat in no-man's land if by themselves.

I also agree and find that Bark River makes incredible smaller knives! The Fox River is one. There are many others.

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[MORIMOTOM]

im not so sure the guards would be any smaller if jerry didnt include a talon hole on each of his knives.

is the guard designed around the talon hole? hard to say, all busses have at least a small guard unless customized.

swamprats and scrapyards dont have the talon hole, but the guards are of similar size.

 

[DWRW]

The Talon hole is not going anywhere. It will stay.

Time to move on I feel. If you don't like the hole there are alot of knife companies out there that don't have it. Good luck finding your perfect knife:thumbup:


I love the variety of the knife industry...enough out there to please all:thumbup:

ken,

You are probably right... (????), but you are not being very fun about it Lighten up

The "Take what Jerry offers or shove off" concept leaves something to be desired. :thumbdn: Maybe that is how it is, but I would hope for a more open discussion.

I am sure Jerry has pretty strong feelings about what he wants in his knives. And I am sure Jerry is going to do what Jerry wants. But, I am sure Jerry is a little more open to his consumer feedback than you imply. If a large majority were to feel a certain way, I would think Jerry would respond some way or another.

But, obviously there are reasons to like Busse knives even if I am the only person who were to feel improvements could be made. Obviously, I am not the only person who feels improvements could be made. There is no one perfect knife for me. There are many knives for many purposes. And different people will want different things.

I am here to "discuss" what I consider possible improvements. :thumbup:

Obvioiusly, opinions will vary.

But, who knows.... Maybe if enough people talk about wanting the Talon hole removed from certain sized knives, Jerry will comply to what the market has requested.

If the market doesn't "request" changes, how would Jerry know to make changes?

Most businesses do factor in consumer feedback.

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[Hogwash]

It's all about the boomerang.

You are missing the point.

 

[DWRW]

im not so sure the guards would be any smaller if jerry didnt include a talon hole on each of his knives.

is the guard designed around the talon hole? hard to say, all busses have at least a small guard unless customized.

swamprats and scrapyards dont have the talon hole, but the guards are of similar size.

You are right! - in many cases anyway.

I have noticed. and I have have discussed it on those forums at various times. I wish some of the Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard knives had slightly smaller guards on certain knives as well.

The Res-C handles in particular have always had what I felt was too thick of a guard. The Res-C has it's own pre-shaped guard with a metal guard in front of it - double-guard on the bottom :thumbdn:
I think the double-bump on the Res-C handles even looks a little funny.

I like how on the Bog Dog and the SS4 how the metal guard was pulled into the Res-C grip and made into more as one.

I think the other Res-C handles would feel and look better if the Res-C was more integrated into one with the metal into a smaller guard. :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Some are good. Some are bigger than I prefer.

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[DWRW]

It's all about the boomerang.

You are missing the point.

LMAO.... yeah I must be totally missing that one ... or it is missing me or something

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[MORIMOTOM]

It's all about the boomerang.

You are missing the point.

what about the "FOUR LEGGED GRASSHOPPER"???

Oh right, it doesnt use the talon hole.