Talonite (rough finish) vs D2 (high polish)

IS ANYBODY READING THIS? 50 million (+/-)posts discussing cobalt vs steel alloys, and no comments on this definitive study? Is everybody out there in a state of shock?
Take a look, guys.
Nice tests Cliff.

No shock there. I have examined the loss of edge bite behavior between the two materials myself, and this confirms my findings. I'll have it posted if I find time before going back to my country.
Nope, not surprised here. Rc hardness pretty much defines resistance to deformation, up until you reach the point where the edge starts to chip out. Enter the CPM alloys and BG42, both of which are ultra pure and feature Vanadium to reduce the grain size. smaller grains= more toughness.
Cryo=more toughness
multiple tempering= more toughness
I have always relied on edge geometry and blade shape/grind to mitigate loss of toughness at higher Rc values, and, I always push the hardness of my steel to the high side.
Never had a problem yet.

Thanks Cliff.

RJ Martin
I suppose I was looking for some reaction from those whose experience has been that talonite just "never quits cutting". I realize that few people have access to a blade with the geometry and alloy characteristics of Cliff's 10V Coyote Meadow as a reference, and it would be nice to see some comparisons of talonite vs. other steels when similarly finished. But the very apparent degradation of the talonite blade as compared with the 10V, and the conclusions that seem apparent when comparing it to D2, at least to me, suggest that we're finally getting comparative data on talonite that is de-bunking its mythical reputation. Of course, the corrosion resistance factor is still a significant plus, and the stuff DOES cut. But depending upon application, it's nice to see the limits of the material finally explored.
Thank you, Cliff, for giving us the benefit of your valuable objective analysis.
Frantium, glad to hear it. I will be looking forward to some interesting reading.

R.J., your comments about BG-42 are interesting, I will definately have to get one of your blades. The Kozuka looks very nice.

Will :

it would be nice to see some comparisons of talonite vs. other steels when similarly finished.

I have several stainless blades (VG-10 and ATS-34) in very similar profiles that I will do the same thing with. I will be leaving the Talonite blade at a medium finish during it to round out the work. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I get around to this as I have to figure out which way to finish the stainless steel blades.

Are you offering your chisel-grind Kozukas and Kwaikens in any of the steels you mention above--any of the CPMs or BG42? I've heard Crucible considers 10V as a sort of supercharged A2, and 3V seems promising in Ed Schott's primary grind style, which has similarities to your chisel grind.
I don't understand the value of Talonite when compared to Ceramic. Ceramic is much harder and also does not rust. Is it fragility, or because Ceramic can only be worked on an industrial basis, or is it something else?

Also, I wonder if Cobalt based materials in knives are a solution to a non-existent problem. What is the actual benefit to Cobalt other than rust resistance? With the advent of excellent stainless steels like BG42 and 440V I would think that these exotic materials will always remain in the "niche" market, just as Titanium has done.

Of course I freely admit to being very un-informed about Talonite and the above is not any sort of criticism of people like Mr. Simonich or their products.

I'm trying real hard to compose the report ASAP. I'm racing with time as I'm going back tomorrow. If I can't finish it tomorrow, I'll post from Indonesia.

D. Epstein,

Is it fragility, or because Ceramic can only be worked on an industrial basis, or is it something else?

Brittleness and the fact that you have to grind the knife rather thick with high angle to have a reasonably durable blade.
Guys: I have always liked A2 for the Japanese style knives-it seems to have great properties for the chisel ground edge, which is VERY fine. I am currently working with BG42, CPM440V, CPM420V and CPM3V, and have been getting great results with all.
I'd like to see Cliff try one of my blades from each of these materials at some point in the future.

RJ Martin
My very limited experience with Talonite in use would tend to agree with these assessments.

AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
RJ & Cliff--
If you decide to charge admission to that one (Cliff testing RJ blades in CPM steels), just go ahead and reserve me a seat, and let me know whether it's in Newfoundland or Connecticut so I can make plane reservations.
Now, as for the price of admission, let's see--I might have some Super Bowl tickets I could trade...plus some cash?

[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 03-03-2000).]
I'm probably missing some salient point in your testing, Cliff, but how do your results jibe with the type of durability and edge holding reported by Will Fennell, Ron Hood and others?

Elim, I don't think I will be doing anything else with Talonite as the performance is not there. I am curious about the behavior of the microserrations in an intermediate stage but I will most likely look at that in other materials. I do have work planned with 420V and with some other high quality blade materials including some Cobalt based ones however I don't even have all of the blades yet so a firm date is simply not possible.

Jack, from my vantage point not very well. You might want to discuss it with them.


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-03-2000).]
boy now i am totally confused!!!!!!!!i am having a small folder made (sebenza style blade)and i was going to use talonite.but now i don't know.should i use some thing diffrent?all the past posts say talonite just keeps cutting and cutting but now i'm hearing that it does not.so what's up?

Is anybody working with Boehler K190PM and trying to compare it to the abovementioned steels and cobalt alloys?