Talonite, what is the truth?

Good Day,

I was not going to push this issue, because I wanted to be a nice guy, but it looks like that approach was not appreciated. And I damaged my integrity by trying to be nice, I should have addressed this as soon as I thought of it. My apologies.

And I am not the first, in one of the threads Cliff Stamp started reporting his findings on Talonite, another Forum member asked how one could reconcile the difference in reports between the various proponents of Talonite and the scientific results that Cliff reported.

And before anyone attacks Cliff, he is not the only one to report similar, Gene started a thread saying something to the same effect. Most, if not all of this is documented on my webpage about Talonite. And those with a good memory will remember how a couple of makers who had worked with cobalt products in the past were cautious in their approach to Talonite.

Have we been caught up in a wave of hype, hoping that, we, the internet knife world had found the next great thing?

What is the truth?

How can one reconcile the mountain of reports about the amazing power of Talonite, with what Cliff experienced?

BTW, Any bets as to how many posts it will be before someone levels personal attacks?

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite and Cobalt Materials Resource Page

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
E

elim

Joined
Dec 6, 1999
Messages
85
Mr. Poff very good question.I for one don't think any one has a right to attack you for asking this.I think cliff Stamp is the only one who has tested talonite against any other steel.As a end user i wish every one would cut through all the B.S. and hype and tell the truth anout how a steel does.
 
Marion,

You said...

"I was not going to push this issue, because I wanted to be a nice guy, but it looks like that approach was not appreciated. And I damaged my integrity by trying to be nice, I should have addressed this as soon as I thought of it. My apologies."

Your initial post suggested your bias. You attacked a couple of custom makers based on the assumption that "customer satisfaction" was not a viable argument for judging a blade. Does a "Nice guy" attack the makers? Your predisposition to criticize the makers rather than the material is in my opinion, a poor judgement call.

"And I am not the first, in one of the threads Cliff Stamp started reporting his findings on Talonite, another Forum member asked how one could reconcile the difference in reports between the various proponents of Talonite and the scientific results that Cliff reported."

Every material has it's weaknesses. But Cliff's lab tests and your interest in denegrating makers do not refute my experience with the material nor does it refute the experience of any of the hundreds of other satisfied users of the alloy.

"Have we been caught up in a wave of hype, hoping that, we, the internet knife world had found the next great thing?"

Perhaps to you the world is the internet. It is only a communication medium where we can discuss the merits of this or that. The real world lies in the wilderness and the packing rooms of the outdoors.

I have seen the mysterious alloys come and some go. Most are still here. Way back when.. 1095 was amazing stuff, it still is, ATS34 was way cool... it is still here. as are a plethora of other steels and alloys. Each has had qualities that endeared them to some users. I stil have my old Buck 110 made some 20 years ago. Amazing knife back then.

There is no "Wave of Hype". Just a new material being given a shot at the limelite. It will win some and lose some but it must be explored to determine it's application in the knife world. You should not try to condemn some makers because they are attempting to present a new material. It is their responsiblity and they are taking a chance. You aren't qualified to stand in judgement of them or their efforts. You risk nothing, they risk everything. Would you have the guts to submit a material for review based on personal experience and limited field evauation? These makers do and I respect them for that courage. Jerry Busse did it and I believe his assertions about INFI are being proven. They certainly were for me.

"How can one reconcile the mountain of reports about the amazing power of Talonite, with what Cliff experienced?"

Perhaps Cliff didn't do a test that represents real world experience. That is a problem with lab stuff. Want a test? Give out 100 blades to 100 Indians and get the blades back a few weeks later.

"BTW, Any bets as to how many posts it will be before someone levels personal attacks?"

Do you consider this to be personal? If you want to criticize someone you need to be prepared to have your criticism evaluated. I am prepared and I can base my suggestions and comments on real world experience, not a collection of writings.

What is your actual field experience with Talonite? Do you have a Talonite blade? I am interested in that opinion, not in attacks on makers.

Ron

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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
Is there any discrepancy? I've seen many posts from Talonite users who say their Talonite knives get dull to a certain point but then go on cutting without seeming to get any duller for a long time. Cliff tested a Talonite knife until it got dull and then stopped testing.

The mechanism seems to be that the softer matrix wears away faster than the harder carbides, so a dull Talonite knife has microserrations that can more or less cut or saw through things, better than a dull steel knife.

Talonite seems to be somewhat like a serrated edge -- it has no advantage when comparing sharp knives but does have an advantage when you compare very dull knives.

I conclude that if your habit is to sharpen your knives before they get dull you will see no advantage to Talonite. If your habit is to let your knives get dull and go on using them you will probably see a considerable advantage. You could consider a serrated-edge steel knife instead, but Talonite has the advantage that when you finally do sharpen it ... and of course it doesn't corrode.

I propose the next test should be comparing a dull Talonite knife to a dull serrated-edge steel knife. The different size and shape of serrations can be expected to perform differently.

I am not personally very interested in the results -- I'd rather use a sharp knife, and I expect Cliff would too -- but for scientific interest and for the sake of people who are not willing (or able) to keep their knives sharp the test could be worthwhile.



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
the truth...you couldnt handle the truth (hahaha).....In my opinion...the stuff is a little soft and holds an edge for a LONG time. That is not just my experience, it is the experience of every one of my customers. As with 6k....the stuff works great, has its limitations, and wont rust. Superman is not a real person...the perfect knife steel does NOT exist. I make knives for people who hunt, by and large...that is where my business is focused, and that is where talonite excells.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Elim,

I don't want to step on Tom's toes here but this is my take.

So far my Talonite Kanji has cleaned about a dozen monkies, a half dozen turtles, a few hundred fish, about 30 deer and 25 (I have to check the numbers) Elk. It has also cleaned three cougar, and seven bear.

I did not take most of this game. I gave the blade to experienced hunters to try. Some were local guides, some were South American Indians and others were friends. There is a strong concensus... The blade will keep an edge and continue to cut long after most knives give up the ghost. As has been said, the edge felt dull but still cut great. This is not an operation for a serrated blade.

Another quality I've noticed but not seen much comment on is it's ability to shed blood. A couple of guys said it looked like the blade was waxed the way it wiped clean. Nothing wants to stick to it. It does not stain. The handle stains but the metal does not. The blade looks great even after heavy use.

I hope that helps.

Ron

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Learn Life Extension at:

http://www.survival.com ]
 
Doc, I guess based on the models we have been using here, I should assume the CPM-3V I use is inferior, having failed to be challenged in the Monkey and Turtle tests. Then again, I don't think it's done any Cougars or Bear either. Hmm. Damned stuff must be real garbage; even ATS-34 can do those things.

Yeah, but how does Talonite do on the Lamb test, Huh?

This is funny.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
My first 24 hrs with my Kanji:
Over 30 feet of heavy duty cardboard
Over 40 pieces of 1/2" manilla rope cut
One nick on the arm that bleed like hell
So far, it has outperformed all my other knives. They include 3 Busse's, 2 Cold Steel,and 2 TOP's. It continues to cut well,and yes, it sheds blood wonderfully
redface.gif
This is the knife that will be going with me to JRTC as an OPFOR PSG in may to back up my Battle Mistress or my Anaconda9. I think that, IMO, this will be the perfect combo for ME. Am I going to stop using all my other blades? Probably not, they all have their place in my world. This is MY experience so far with Talonite and I am impressed.
 
In case my flip remarks weren't clear. I was agreeing with you Doc that relevant tests are all that matters. Stress testing is fine, but within the context of its anticipated need. I use CPM-3V for tactical knives and doubt one will ever skin an elk, much less a monkey.

BTW, I ate monkey once. It was terrible! Turtle's pretty good though.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Cancel all my Talonite orders, NOW!!

Hey did you know that if you get you Talonite blades near a nuclear reactor they will GLOW BLUE!! They can also be used as raw nuclear material if you run out of Ur 235.

Did you know that a man that grinds talonite/stellite for a living will get arthritis at an early age!! Just ask Kit.

Did you know that Handling of to much cobalt will shrink your gonads, just ask Walt(because he is a doc not because his shrunk).

Did you know that talonite attracts lightning! be carefull when you are out in the rain.

For all concerned the above was all BS!

As JIM from the Show TAXI once said; " I don't know what's right, I don't know what's wrong, I don't even know what's going on".
 
It's pretty easy to explain. Doc and Tom did a great job.

If I'm not mistaken, scientific testing and physics also told us that a 747 airplane and a bumblebee couldn't fly.

If you read and decide not to try it based on that alone, that's okay by me. My Stellite 6K and Talonite customers will be happy. More for them. Most of them can read and all of them base knife performance on how it performs, not what scientific results show.

Can there be negative hype as well as positive hype? Hmmm.


 
Hello,
I bought a Talonite blade from Allen about a month or so ago.I realy didn`t want to use it,but with all the talk on Talonite hype,I had to put it to work.I brought it to work and started on a piece of Pin oak.Mind you I did the same with my BM 750.Well after about 45 mins on the oak the Talonites shaving edge was long gone!!I was talking to another forum member that told me to keep cutting even when it got dull,so I did.I put the edge to some sampson 1/2 braided tree line.Took 3 strokes to cut through it,while the 750 did it in 2 strokes,with 1/2 less blade then the M.E.U.K. I didn`t want to use the 750s serated edge on the rope cuz it wouldn`t be fair to the M.E.U.Ks straight edge.We all know serated edges will cut through this kind of rope better then ANY straight edge.The 750 hasn`t needed sharpening ever.Ive had this as a daily carry for about 2 months now.Those are my findings in my testings of Talonite so far.I can say this for Talonite,I brought the edge back to push shaving in 5 light strokes each side on a medium grit stone.


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Jay
Life is like a box of chocolates,never know what your gona git!
 
well...like kit said.....isnt that where this all started....my customers LOVE the stuff......rob is two years behind on his orders for the stuff...kits customers LOVE the stuff.......like my quote from Jack the Col......you cant handle the truth..... NO LOL here. btw JAY, from my experience... the talonite is fairly soft, so it wasnt really dull, just rolled over some, and the five light strokes straightened it right back up. I talked to Butch Winter for a couple of hours about this and we both agreed that was one problem with the stuff. It has phenomenol wear resistance, so it doesnt wear down....but is not the strongest stuff in the world, especially out there at that thin edge.....

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http://www.mayoknives.com




[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 03-11-2000).]
 
To often real life use of blade materials are overlooked.
To go further with Kits quote ..
The engine on a Harley Davidson cannot run according to some. :} Funny huh?

It just seems when some folks post others with oposite opinions seem to just not see the post.


WELL HERE GOES AGAIN
THERE IS NO ONE WONDER STEEL OR MATERIAL THAT FITS ALL THE NEEDS AND DIFFERENT USES OF EVERY KNIFE BLADE IN THE UNIVERSE.
There are common groups IMHO . There are better choices in each group. Every one has good points and bad points.



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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
New Web at www.darrelralph.com

 
Doc Ron has a good point -- my analogy with serrated edges has limited applicability; a coarse edge is good for things like skinning that a serrated edge isn't good for.

So a better comparison would be a steel knive sharpened to a coarse edge, with a file or (probably a closer comparison) a coarse stone.

Cliff's results do not contradict any of the previous reports I've seen. Every report I've seen posted has said Talonite is not great at holding a shaving edge; that's not its strong point. Where's the hype? I'm as willing as the next fellow to harrass anyone who's guilty of posting hype ... point me at him and I'll harrass the heck out of him!


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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
I just have to put in my vote for the "no perfect material" side. I can get myself a piece of one of the really fancy aerospace ceramics, which will withstand and reasonable impact, and hold an edge incredibly. Perfect, right? Wrong. Let's say I push it boyond it's limits as far as impact goes; what happens? The thing shatters like glass. And it's going to be expensive to replace. Let's say, after a looooong time, I do manage to nick (chip, actually, since it is ceramic) or dull the edge; what happens? I cannot reasonably resharpen it, so I have to either use it for buttering toast, or buy a new one.

The lesson? No material will be perfect for every application. I certainly don't plan on taking a tool steel knife on a SCUBA dive, so I'm drawing up designs for a Talonite dive knife. If I ever want to dig up land mines, I'll get myself a ceramic (regular knife ceramic, not the extra-fancy stuff), or other non-magnetic, blade. For general use, I have no problem with carrying tool steel or stainless steel. That's our excuse for owning so many knives; we need different knives for different jobs (and some for decorating the walls, and some to hand down through the generations, and some for their value as a collectibles, and some to give away as gifts, and some to flick open and closed to avoid boredom, and some to ...)

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
My apologies if it seemed I was trying to tear down, attack or denigrate makers.

I thought that I had started a post speaking of a particular and specific line of logic.

I really appreciate the information that is flowing here, and that was the point of my topic. I guess I fail to understand the inflammoatory nature of my remarks, please forgive me.

Ron, I have a TOPS Talonite Shadow Hunter #6. Also, I left a msg on your answering machine, let's discuss this.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite and Cobalt Materials Resource Page

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Ok, Ok, I have a stellite 6K knife(1 of 200) made by Gerber for Deloro in 1996(dam thing cost $500). I sharpened it once(actually had to because the factory edge was not razor sharp) and it has been going strong ever since. It cut's and cuts and cuts. The blade is 5/32 and flat ground, which may help, I have no idea, all I know is that it cuts very well. When I sharpened it I left the finish a little coarse because it seems to help it grab and cut. I know this is not relevant since it is not Talonite, but I thought I would give the closest experience I have.
 
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