Talonite, what is the truth?

[Survivital]

I was attacked by a Chubacabra during the Day of the Dead fiesta along Mex.307. Chewed me like one of those little sugar skulls. It was
fortunate that I didn't have my Talonite Kanji or I'd have made goat's head soup. Jason

BTW, I'll be ready next time cause I'm due to
receive my Simonich Talonite Carnivore soon!

 

[Cougar Allen]

Cliff wrote:
"I stopped the cutting when the Talonite blade would not cut the material, but would rip the cardboard and just skate along the rope / denim with no bite. I don't see any point to what happens with the blade after this as I would call it unusable at this point."

My idea is different people call it unusable at different levels of dulling, and it's only at a stage of dulling that you wouldn't bother testing because you would never go on using a knife that dull that the advantage of Talonite shows up. I know people who commonly go on using a knife lonnnnnnng after I would have stopped to sharpen it ... I believe that's the main reason for the popularity of serrated edges....

From your last post, though, it's clear that theory of a softer matrix wearing away and leaving carbide particles for something analogous to a coarsely sharpened edge is wrong. Am I all wrong and in fact Talonite has no advantage in edge-holding at any stage or in any way under any conditions?

An edge dulls in different ways cutting different materials ... at different stages of dulling ... in a different way with a slicing action than with a pushing action ... I see posts saying Talonite has an advantage in edgeholding in some conditions and I see your results showing no advantage, and I think, well, there are so many different ways an edge can wear it could be that you didn't test it under the limited conditions where the advantage shows up. Could I be all wrong; could there be no conditions at all in which Talonite shows an advantage and all the people reporting an advantage have been somehow deluded? It seems to me unlikely ... I think everybody who's posted on Talonite also owns high-grade steel knives so it can't be that they're only saying it's better than 420-J2.... Of course a person who expects it to be better could think it's better than it actually is; many of the reports haven't seemed to be about comparing Talonite with steel side-by-side ... yet ... if edgeholding is really worse than the premium steel knives these people own and use too, you'd think they'd notice that. Especially when Talonite first came out ... everybody was looking at it experimentally, expecting it might be better but not at all sure it would be.

One thing we do know is a Talonite edge won't degrade from microcorrosion. We've all seen reports of 440A holding an edge better in corrosive conditions like meat-cutting and commercial fishing than steels that are much more resistant to abrasion and deformation. That doesn't seem enough of a factor to account for the evidence, though ... seems to me there's some other factor involved....

-Cougar :{)

 

[Doc Ron]

Cougar,

I think Cliff's assertion about the microserrations is wrong. It may have something to do with his test procedures and subjective testing. I thought I'd address the issue of test procedures later in another post.

I have looked at the edge of the Talonite blade after cutting meat, whittling and other camp chores. When the blade "seems" dull it still cuts well and safely (I dislike dull knives). Under my little 30X field scope the edge shows distinct serrations. It does not seem to "polish" as Cliff asserts. Then again I don't cut carpet, or the grass with my knife.

I recommend that if you have a Talonite edge and use it in it's intended role, take a quick look at the edge under magnification. I am preparing a series of microphotographs of Stellite, Talonite and Dendretic Cobalt for publication later this year.

Ron

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[Scooter]

I'd like to throw a couple bits into this pot; and of course, I'm pretty much reiterating what other more knowledgeable type have said.

I don't think the original question was stated correctly...not thought through completely in a preactical manner(?).

This issue could be considered "hype" if we were talking about something that could be purchased for pocket change - or of a price that is easily afforded by anyone. But we're not, we are talking about a product that for anyone is expensive. I don't think people generally buy expensive items that don't at least have some value/merrit.

It's like asking if a BMW 5-series is better than, say, a Chrysler M300. Each has it's own merrits, and I don't think that saying, X-number of customers are satified is wrong in response to (Why should I buy your product)...I think the person saying this may be trying to tell you that...look, I sell lots of these things, they seem to be liked by alot of people, and quite frankly, go away if you don't want it...I really don't care as I sell all I make. (Now weather he's right or wrong is another question)...then again, that person is in business to make money, and when your income is dictated by the number of people you talk to, you try to minimize the time spent with lookyloos. It's always a buyer beware situation.

As for the bottom line on Talonite, in my eyes, it is like any other material; it has good points and bad points and that depends totally on what you plan to use it for.

I think the one thing that we as knife makers and buyers need to realize is that until that magic material is found, a knife is a compromise - material, geometry, etc.


Darren

 

[JoHnYKwSt]

Talonite cutting the cardboard did not show any advantage over the other materials, and he kept cutting until the talonite was ripping the cardboard.

What did you expect Cliff to do? Keep ripping at the cardboard?

 

[tom mayo]

I have said this time and time again, and also brought up that i talked about this extensively with butch winter, is the fact that when most people think talonite has become dull, it has in fact just rolled over, and only needs to be touched up with just about anything to bring the edge back to its upright position and its long wearing cutting edge....that is my opinion...and right or wrong, im sticking by it

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http://www.mayoknives.com

 

[Mike Mlodzik]

I've been using my Talonite Kanji as a general purpose knife since it arrived (one of the first batch last year ...)
It hasn't been abused, just used for everything. Still holding a beautiful edge. Most of the folks who check it out try to trade me out of it. The edge is weird ... doesn't "feel" extremely sharp, but when folks check it with a thumb nail ... they freak.
Absolutely perfect workmanship and an interesting material. Is that scientific? Nah, just love of a great blade and design/execution!


Mike



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No matter what you do, some things won't work out.
No matter what you do, some things will work out.
Worry about those things that you can make a difference with.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cougar :

From your last post, though, it's clear that theory of a softer matrix wearing away and leaving carbide particles for something analogous to a coarsely sharpened edge is wrong.

If this was the way it behaved it would not be suitable for what it was developed. Talonite / Stellite 6k were designed to be very slick so that they could be used as parts that would see metal contacts without lubrication and they needed to be able to resist galling and seizing. They also needed high wear but if you did this by getting lots of hard carbides (CPM-10V) you would have a very rough surface. The Cobalt alloys do this in part by having the actual matrix being very wear resistant, they are hard facing alloys.

It is this very same "slickness" that produces the "does not cut rope very well" effect. This is also why you have read makers saying not to polish Talonite as it loses all bite. This will not happen to steels such as D2 because of the coarse grain and 10V because of the Vanadian carbides. Both of them (and lots of others) will retain high slicing ability at a high polish. This smoothness is also what is causing the "talonite does not feel sharp" comments. Yes, because it isn't. Once the edge rolls it feels very smooth as there is not an aggressive carbides nature, and of course once the serrations break off you get the same thing.

Of course sharp is a relative thing. For example if the profile is decent, a blade with a very worn edge will go on slicing into wood for an extreme length of time. And of course anything cuts well if you are doing slow restrained push cuts. The slickness and loss of bite have been common in the descriptions from the beginning, even Will Fennell confirmed this in great detail awhile ago.

in fact Talonite has no advantage in edge-holding at any stage or in any way under any conditions?

It is very corrosion resistant so there are obvious situations where it will perform highly. You would need to be in a fairly harsh enviroment though. The high wear resistance would lead you to believe that it should perform strongly for most cutting however the strength is so low that it is the dominant blunting effect. If you used a very reinforced edge like shears or saw teeth then the strength is no longer the dominant effect - which is probably why Talonite performs so well for industry blades.

Now you can get around the low strength by using a smooth steel often as Tom suggests. And of course, if you use a smooth steel on a steel blade you will rapidly extend its life as well. However this is only suitable for highly polished edges which of course give very poor slicing performance. As Joe has long been saying, you can use a coarse finish to overcome that. However with Talonite because of the low strength the microserrations break off quickly, Rob Simonich confirmed this when I suggested coarse sharpening months ago to improve rope slicing ability - have a look at some old threads. Of course once the serrations break off you will not get strong performance after steeling.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 03-14-2000).]

 

[James Mattis]

Skimming . . . Do I see a pattern here? That people who have been cutting animal matter swear by Talonite, and people cutting vegetable matter swear at it?

Then there's Boye Dendritic Cobalt - coarser grain? - whose great claim to fame is rope cutting, though apparently it's not the best stuff for whittling or running into a staple.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 03-14-2000).]

 

[Walt Welch]

James Mattis; you asked if Talonite (r) would be good for the following uses:

A skinning knife?
A whittling knife?
A box-opening knife?
A paring knife?
A boning or fillet knife?
A bread knife?
A chef's knife?
A seriously expensive machete?
A small fighter?
A big leg of lamb hacking fighter?

The answer to your questions is YES. With the following exceptions:

It wouldn't make a good bread knife. A serrated knife is much better.

It wouldn't make a good machete. A more shock absorbant alloy would be preferred. Besides, the cost would be prohibitive.

I can attest to its' box and envelope opening prowess.

Most of your food applications were field tested by Nick Blinoff and Michael Gettier, who put the prototype Talonite (r) chef's knife through its' paces, and raved about its' performance.

A noted knifemaker is making me two paring knives of Talonite (r). Will let you know how they work when I get them. Further, will let you know how the final version of the Talonite (r)chef's knife works whenever a (different) noted knife maker gets off his duff and makes me one.

Walt

 

[stab1]

The true test of a blade is how it performs in the hands of the user. Most people don't cut 42 ft. of rope, or slice cans in half or chop 2x4's with their knives. If the knife does what they want it to do then it is made of great stuff. If it fails to perform that the material is crap. Personally I want my next knife to be made of Kryptonite in case Superman decides to cop an attitude.

Rs
Don