- Joined
- Nov 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,011
Good description of a fine knife, Elen. Not much to add to that.:thumbup:
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Teach Me About Scandinavian Knives?
- Thread starter BASIC
- Start date
"For me, the down side is that they don't cut nearly as well as a flat ground knife that has the same width and thickness. The "scandi" grind is basically a saber grind with no secondary bevel. It is very easy to sharpen, which I suspect contributes to it's popularity."
cut what as well? cardboard? a flat grind does not have the shoulders that get in the way when cutting cardboard like a scandi. scandis excel at carving wood, where the wide bevel allows a great deal of control. the right grind for the right cut is what i always say.
cut what as well? cardboard? a flat grind does not have the shoulders that get in the way when cutting cardboard like a scandi. scandis excel at carving wood, where the wide bevel allows a great deal of control. the right grind for the right cut is what i always say.
I bought that from the smith himself, and I haven't found a web-site that sells this knife. I did saw some on a Finnish hunting show a couple of years ago. I also found Kivimäki's contact information from the web, so I'm sure he still makes knives.
I posted a couple of pics of this same knife to an earlier thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528030
If you are cutting straight in wood, then the bevel does help, similar to a wood chisel. For a lot of tight turns, for me, the wide bevel has more drag and can get in the way. I find a thin flat grind works better, but your technique might be different.
dantzk8
Basic Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,889
Elen, Attej,
Very interesting stuff. Could you please tell us more about the different kinds of scandinavian knives. There are puukkos (sissi? tommi? väki? ...?), leukus, hukaris, probably others. I'm very interested in those knives but it's all a world, where to start? where to go? I'm not a collector, just a user, my main concern is woodcraft.
Thanks.
dantzk.
Very interesting stuff. Could you please tell us more about the different kinds of scandinavian knives. There are puukkos (sissi? tommi? väki? ...?), leukus, hukaris, probably others. I'm very interested in those knives but it's all a world, where to start? where to go? I'm not a collector, just a user, my main concern is woodcraft.
Thanks.
dantzk.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 2,798
LOL, seems I've asked this question before.:foot:
This is a topic that frequently leads into enormous nitpicking and debates over semantics among Finnish knife nuts.
The word "puukko" itself is a Finnish word, meaning the traditional Scandinavian wood working and general utility knife design usually featuring a "Scandinavian grind". There is another Finnish word, "veitsi", that translates directly into "knife", and encompasses everything except puukkos, from enormous bowies to small folding knives and thin-bladed kitchen knives. In other Scandinavian languages, like Swedish and Norwegian, there is no specific word for the puukko style of knife, just a general word that can be used in reference to all knives - this word is "kniv" as in Fällkniven, unsurprisingly. So, while a Swedish or Norwegian knife of traditional Scandinavian style can look pretty much identical to a Finnish puukko, only the Finns call these knives puukkos, whereas the Swedes and Norwegians don't. It's a bit complicated. That's why I like the term "Scandi knife" - it doesn't cause as much confusion as "puukko" does. Generally, the best way to recognize where a Scandi knife is made and whether it's a puukko or not, is by looking at the maker's stamp if any and the dimensions of the knife. If you recognize the maker by the stamp, then you already know the country of origin - if it's Finland, then it's a puukko. Swedish and Norwegian Scandi knives tend to often have a blade shorter than puukkos. The typical puukko has a blade length equal to the length of the handle. It's perhaps easiest and the most accurate to call Swedish and Norwegian Scandi knives just Scandi knives, and Finnish Scandi knives puukkos.
Wow. That was a long way of saying there's no definitive answer.
Anyway, speaking of Finnish Scandi knives, that is to say puukkos, since they're an ancient design, there are many variations of it. Some of these are named by the area of origin of the design, and some by the maker who made the design known. Tommipuukko is an example of the latter, having been named after the smith "Tommi" Keränen from Hyrynsalmi. The differences in the variations aren't usually very large, and most people can't recognize them. Typical differences are in dimensions, shape of the tip of the blade, the materials and decorations used in the handle and the sheath, and such things. This all is true for small to medium "general utility" puukkos - although some are specifically designed to work better for very small wood work and such, and some for more general use. A "vuolupuukko", for example, is a special puukko for wood work, featuring a shorter, wider and curvier blade than the basic puukkos designed as do-it-all general utility tools. Some "variations" are so different from the general utility puukko that they look like entirely different designs - and that they are. There is the lapinpuukko, or lapinleuku, a very long large chopping knife. Then there is the väkipuukko, basically a seax long knife. A hukari is a heavy bush tool for hatchet type of work, a heavy and relatively long bladed knife. Finally, the Sissipuukko is a modern military knife, designed to handle rougher use than the traditional small utility puukkos - it features a heavier and thicker, longer blade.
A good place to start looking at the various designs is any shop that deals in Scandi style knives. For Americans, the Ragweed Forge is a good one.
I hope that all didn't just make it even more unclear.
I have several Scandi-ground Moras (both Frost's and Eriksens) and one EKA flat v-grind. The thing I notice most about the Mora's edge is: when they sharpen it, the sharpening machine leaves very small ridges all along the grind. At the very edge, this leaves a saw-tooth that you can feel with your thumb. Under 8x magnification, it looks precisely like a saw. While the edge is indeed very sharp, the rough sawtooth all along the edge makes it feel even sharper.
I have a Mora 510 that didn;t come very sharp from the hilt to the start of the belly. From belly to tip it's very sharp. So I've been trying to dress up the edge on the lower portion of the blade without putting a micro-bevel on it - just by following the Scandi grind angle. I learned that it takes ALOT of honing with standard stones to get those striated grind marks off so you can get down to the edge. The right-side facing of the blade is already ground smooth and polished from the factory. The left side is heavily (relatively) striated. I've been working both sides just to keep it even and centered.
I have a Mora 510 that didn;t come very sharp from the hilt to the start of the belly. From belly to tip it's very sharp. So I've been trying to dress up the edge on the lower portion of the blade without putting a micro-bevel on it - just by following the Scandi grind angle. I learned that it takes ALOT of honing with standard stones to get those striated grind marks off so you can get down to the edge. The right-side facing of the blade is already ground smooth and polished from the factory. The left side is heavily (relatively) striated. I've been working both sides just to keep it even and centered.
- Joined
- May 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,819
What elen and others aren't telling you is that a "true" Scandinavian knife doesn't have a guard, in fact, it doesn't even have scales! It is a sharpened scandi blade from tip to tang! 
Only a truly "skillfull" woodsman can possibly yield one, certainly no one from North America!
- FLIX
Only a truly "skillfull" woodsman can possibly yield one, certainly no one from North America! - FLIX
That depends greatly on the maker, but generally, much less than you might think. For anything between 80 - 150 Euros you'd be able to buy one off even the most decorated and skillful makers in the country, some of which do have a longish (several months) waiting list. And these things are pretty enough to be rightly called art.
This is my EDC Tommipuukko by Pentti Kaartinen, a very fine smith indeed, after a quick polishing. I believe it was about 99 € with shipping back when I got this particular one.
What elen and others aren't telling you is that a "true" Scandinavian knife doesn't have a guard, in fact, it doesn't even have scales! It is a sharpened scandi blade from tip to tang!
- FLIX
Yes. Only after decades of painful exercise does a man develop hands coarse and hard enough to be able to comfortably hold onto the razor-sharpened handle, but it's all worth it.
I use this set I bought from http://www.ragweedforge.com/FinnishKnifeCatalog.html
It's an Iisakki Järvenpää Leuku/Puukko set
It's a 3 7/8" puukko and 7" leuku.
I also bought a second puukko of the same size for wear as a neck knife.
The puukko is by far my most used knife. It came sharp enough to shave with no secondary bevel. I Smoothed it up a bit on a hard Arkansas stone and it's so sharp I cut myself pretty good with it once and didn't feel the cut. It works wonders on all kinds of bushcraft projects.
The Leuku makes a good kniofe for butchering large game and cutting things off spikey objects, like harvesting cactus apples, cutting the cactus itself, etc. Here's one place a full flat grind is superior: cutting flesh (note butcher knives are flat grinds). However, digging out my calipers, the Leuku comes out at .134" thick, so it does a good job, and is just as sharp as the puukko.
The wood on these knives is absolutely beautiful, and the handles are oval shape, so they don't twist around in your grip. I like the carbon steel mine are made from, it sharpens easily and strikes a good spark.
I would not beat these with a baton, nor drive them point first into wood/bone (by drive I mean use an implement other than hand pressure), but that's what I carry a hatchet for.
Personally, I think a Scandi grind followed by a full flat grind are the best for woodscraft uses so long as you aren't trying to make your knife a hatchet. If you want that kind of use, then a convex grind will be the shining star.
It's an Iisakki Järvenpää Leuku/Puukko set
It's a 3 7/8" puukko and 7" leuku.
I also bought a second puukko of the same size for wear as a neck knife.
The puukko is by far my most used knife. It came sharp enough to shave with no secondary bevel. I Smoothed it up a bit on a hard Arkansas stone and it's so sharp I cut myself pretty good with it once and didn't feel the cut. It works wonders on all kinds of bushcraft projects.
The Leuku makes a good kniofe for butchering large game and cutting things off spikey objects, like harvesting cactus apples, cutting the cactus itself, etc. Here's one place a full flat grind is superior: cutting flesh (note butcher knives are flat grinds). However, digging out my calipers, the Leuku comes out at .134" thick, so it does a good job, and is just as sharp as the puukko.
The wood on these knives is absolutely beautiful, and the handles are oval shape, so they don't twist around in your grip. I like the carbon steel mine are made from, it sharpens easily and strikes a good spark.
I would not beat these with a baton, nor drive them point first into wood/bone (by drive I mean use an implement other than hand pressure), but that's what I carry a hatchet for.
Personally, I think a Scandi grind followed by a full flat grind are the best for woodscraft uses so long as you aren't trying to make your knife a hatchet. If you want that kind of use, then a convex grind will be the shining star.
dantzk8
Basic Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,889
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,201
I gather from the above posts that a consensus view is that the "Scandi grind" is uniformly a saber grind with a single, flat bevel, a form sanctified by centuries of Scandinavian experience with working wood..
No so.
Start with Elen's post and move to the following comments by the former mod of the Scandinavian Makers Forum at BritishBlades, Trond Petersen, himself a respected maker of custom knives:
I have exchanged emails with a couple of other, patient Scandinavian makers. They agree with Trond that traditional Scandinavian knives come in a variety of grinds. Their posts to that effect at forums are largely ignored.
Add this, please. I have thirty knives made in Scandinavian countries. I examine each one carefully on arrival. Twenty-nine revealed the bright line at the edge that shows the presence of a small secondary bevel OR had an even larger secondary bevel OR were convexed OR were hollow-ground. These included knives by:
Trond
Fiskars
"Sandvik"
Marttiini
Helle
Brusletto
IIsakki
Frosts
Falkniven
Cloudberry [I hear these are probably Brusletto blades.]
"GC MORA"
Karhunkysni [? script hard to read]
Roselli
P. Holmberg
Sharpa
Jonsson
In fact, the only knives I own that arrived with the so-called "Scandi grind" are a single red-handled "MORA" and a Koster.
Finally, my wife's grandfather was a professional woodcarver for Pullman. He created the wonderful scenes and decorations in inlay and carving in the private rail cars of the "swells" of the early 19th century. I have several of his carving knives. They are Sloyds, a form said to have been developed in Sweden -- and still sold by Swedish makers. They are all flat ground with convex edges.
Seems to me that saber with a single, flat bevel is just one way to go.
No so.
Start with Elen's post and move to the following comments by the former mod of the Scandinavian Makers Forum at BritishBlades, Trond Petersen, himself a respected maker of custom knives:
I have exchanged emails with a couple of other, patient Scandinavian makers. They agree with Trond that traditional Scandinavian knives come in a variety of grinds. Their posts to that effect at forums are largely ignored.
Add this, please. I have thirty knives made in Scandinavian countries. I examine each one carefully on arrival. Twenty-nine revealed the bright line at the edge that shows the presence of a small secondary bevel OR had an even larger secondary bevel OR were convexed OR were hollow-ground. These included knives by:
Trond
Fiskars
"Sandvik"
Marttiini
Helle
Brusletto
IIsakki
Frosts
Falkniven
Cloudberry [I hear these are probably Brusletto blades.]
"GC MORA"
Karhunkysni [? script hard to read]
Roselli
P. Holmberg
Sharpa
Jonsson
In fact, the only knives I own that arrived with the so-called "Scandi grind" are a single red-handled "MORA" and a Koster.
Finally, my wife's grandfather was a professional woodcarver for Pullman. He created the wonderful scenes and decorations in inlay and carving in the private rail cars of the "swells" of the early 19th century. I have several of his carving knives. They are Sloyds, a form said to have been developed in Sweden -- and still sold by Swedish makers. They are all flat ground with convex edges.
Seems to me that saber with a single, flat bevel is just one way to go.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,201
Lengthy discussion of secondary bevels:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38765&highlight=microbevel
I would add that some Finnish knives have a diamond cross-section rather than a high bevel on a saber that a couple of posters (Ed. in the linked thread) think to be uniform.
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38765&highlight=microbevel
I would add that some Finnish knives have a diamond cross-section rather than a high bevel on a saber that a couple of posters (Ed. in the linked thread) think to be uniform.