Teaching dying skills?

I read the title and thought maybe it was a thread about Hospice care and the acceptance of death ;)

I think much of what is longed for is why the Boy Socuts of America was founded. To make sure young men never forgot the skills that could support life outside the city limits and supply lines. Not just surving a day or two but sustained life. Time has changed the scouts quite a bit but there is still some good to be found there- especially for hard charging leaders that have the chance to get kids outdoors and out of meeting places.

Growing up on farms also helps to teach things that are fading from everday life but could become life changing if people suddenly lost modern conveniences.

Just knowing how to get good yield from plants, how to build, basic plumbing, welding,mending clothes. Cooking food you can stomach without running to the grocer and having them hand you pre cut, pre marinated meat with baking instructions. Just learning how to move heavy bits of machinery while working on them, come alongs, Z pulls, beams and levers. If you cannot jack it up, dig out from under it... improvisation.

Many of us are here because we appreciate the independance that these skills give us. Many others do not give it a second thought.

It is funny to me that I can be building or making something and my wife will ask me how I learned to do it...sometimes I do not ever remember being "taught" but surely learned by watching or helping someone else do it as a kid.

Bill
 
I can agree skills may not be dying, but turning into hobbies. Where I had thought in terms of ‘life depending on it’. Nothing wrong with the joy of something for it’s own sake. And I meant no insult and see none taken, just exaggerating to make one point. You and I may be ones who could bridge two worlds to share. Possibly many can. But can a majority? Different if it is a vacation, fun, a hobby, visitors to each others worlds. Yes more ‘do-able’ I agree.

And yes in my small community we have a group that meets to share ideas and skills. (WIN- Wellness In Nenana) We invite a guest teacher=- speaker each month. Bee keeping- organic gardening- herbal medicine have been topics. Anyone interested in going further gets advice, sources for more information, and can bring it back to the group. It’s not as good as shop time, hands on in the field, but it gets an interest going.

The group has local opposition, but we press on anyway and mingle with like minded people. No one is in charge, there are no fees. It’s all voluntary. We have met every week without fail for 5 years. Guessing this happens all over, and anyone interested can locate such a group.

Just noticed today how much I like my 86 truck with crank up windows and nothing electronic.
Yet the knives I make tend to be on the fancy side! I think of it as God having a sense of humor. Giving me such skills to be on the cutting edge of fancy, not much old fashion about it. God wanted me to have something to ponder.

For me ‘basic’ is not about going back in time. It is about going ahead in time. Settling another planet, (Star Wars) or when we must adapt to a fast changing planet and the delicate system we depend on cant be supported. But none of that may ever happen! So sure, it’s just fun, rewarding. I think of it as something man has done a million years and is soothing , relaxing, lowers blood pressure etc.

So a new thought. “It’s not so much the gold as the looking for it” It’s about the journey. If so, it’s about each of us being on our own path and the joy of the struggle , the reward of figuring it out, and confidence coming from the success of overcoming. Teaching each other that is as much ‘by example’ as ‘shop time.’ So, is having an instructor the most vital aspect of what you seek, or should it stop any of us?

There is on this forum for example a ‘gallery’ where we show each other what we are working on. The cutting edge of a new idea, brainstorming, asking questions, getting a atta boy, and encouragement. We might think to go there now and then and see someone who got no comments on maybe a first project. Or offer a suggestion when it’s asked for if we think we know a better way to oh, like ‘make your own tube pattern rivets’ as I last commented on.

Yes flint knapping. I used to sell the moose stem ‘hammers’ and antler point flakers, and learned how to temper stones and cut them in a way knappers might prefer to expand my market. I also sold wolf bones moose bones for handles and bone knives as well as copper for copper knives, and bronze blades for roman swords. Out of the animal parts business. Going to prison in a week. Now a felon. One of my customers was an under cover agent. Hence words on the subject of not everyone is kind, understanding, or wants the old skills, ways, or materials around. .And is willing to go to great lengths to stop it.
 
neeman said:
Dyeing skills are dieing
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Simple enough, and the principal culprit is environmental. It is not what you may know, but that we live in an environment that discourages us from practicing anything that varies from the norm. You can't build a cabin without a permit, nor even a campfire in most state and federal parks, and fishing and hunting have been all but regulated out of existance. Even simple chemicals that would have been available all over town during the 60s are now nearly impossible to get. So lets not pretend that this is about sharing information. We are living in a very restrictive society, where we barely have enough elbow room for basic needs, much less archaic crafts.

n2s
 
lmalterna said:
Just learning how to move heavy bits of machinery while working on them, come alongs, Z pulls, beams and levers. If you cannot jack it up, dig out from under it... improvisation.

It is funny to me that I can be building or making something and my wife will ask me how I learned to do it...sometimes I do not ever remember being "taught" but surely learned by watching or helping someone else do it as a kid.

Bill
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The ability to synthesize a correct solution to a problem based upon past experiences is perhaps the beginning of wisdom? Knowing where you are at and where you want to go may allow you to use skills that you have learned to find your own trail.
 
I don't think we should trade too much field knowledge to the white collar crowd. When the societal meltdown comes, and the food supply quickly dries up, they'll be an excellent source of tender and fatty "long pig" so we don't want then getting any ideas or puttin up a fuss. Present company excepted of course, Talf. :)
 
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Redmasta said:
I think most would figure out a way to survive. Even if somehow the majority of the world died off people would probably find a way to group together and thrive.

Id even imagine that since the infrastructure would still be around it wouldn't be too long before these groups move into a small city and have electricity and running water. The human race is fairly resilient gonna take something major (massive asteroid) to wipe us out.
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This plus you'd be amazed at how fast you'd learn something if your life depended on it and you didn't have to concern yourself with the tasks associated with made up things like work and the economy.
 
Good luck to you Miles, I hope you don't spend too long away.
This is an exceptional thread.

Many of these "disapearing skills" used to be a normal part of life, but now they can't be.
The underlying reason is the worlds huge human population, & our industrialisation. We no longer live in the natural environment. We create our own, & then feel the need to protect nature like a suburban garden. Traditional activities become illegal, or just unproductive.

It would be good if such skills were kept alive, & perhaps such activity should be viewed & funded like a museum.
 
not2sharp said:
Simple enough, and the principal culprit is environmental. It is not what you may know, but that we live in an environment that discourages us from practicing anything that varies from the norm. You can't build a cabin without a permit, nor even a campfire in most state and federal parks, and fishing and hunting have been all but regulated out of existance. Even simple chemicals that would have been available all over town during the 60s are now nearly impossible to get. So lets not pretend that this is about sharing information. We are living in a very restrictive society, where we barely have enough elbow room for basic needs, much less archaic crafts.

n2s
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Well put.
 
I suppose "natural" is a meaning that can be argued over.

I was thinking of how our population, domiciled largely in cities, has obliterated the previous environment. Animals don't migrate, different insects thrive, everything has changed. It is not possible for that weight of population to live in a primitive style.

I think the dying skills you are thinking of are intrinsic with tools, for the most part. But I bet when you practice what you know, the environment isn't permanently changed.

I am just saying, that the population has moved to such a level that old skills will not support it, so old skills will be replaced by new skills. And the old largely forgotten.
 
In reply to “It would be good if such skills were kept alive, & perhaps such activity should be viewed & funded like a museum” I think of places like Valley Forge where there is an entire community set up as re enactment. Where skilled people get paid by visitors to view and photo all aspects of social life as it once was. Taking this idea and mixing it with another, the fact there are retirement places with covenants, sets of rules all agree to, and live by “No kids no pets no noise no junk no changes” (my mother lives in such a place so I am exposed to it when I visit) . It might be possible to set aside wilderness land as we do parks, for the segment of our population that desires to live ‘by other rules’ then the norm. Viewed by, visited by, a supportive public. (allowed to view, but not control or change). Or allow savages to live in parks, as we let other wild creatures live in peace, as part of a natural environment.

In reply to “we barely have enough elbow room for basic needs, much less archaic crafts.” I wonder who decided there is no room for basic needs? In that I do not agree. Come to Alaska. You can still leave civilization, start walking, and in 20 years never find a road or human sign. It’s possible to go 1,000 miles. Entire villages still live under subsistence laws “depend on the land” Living in such a village could be an option, but now ‘subsistence;’ is now an “Indian only’ racial issue. I’m the wrong color.

Archaic is also an interesting term to use for old ways. As I said, I do not see myself as stuck in the 1800’s as some feel. I see myself as the cutting edge of a brave new future! As such I mix a lot of cutting edge technology in with ancient stuff. I design web pages, while snacking on moose I killed with black powder. If civilization gets to another planet, what sorts of people and skills will be needed? If anything happens to our planet or civilization, a war, disease, natural disaster, economic depression, those who know the basics, like ‘life before cell phones’ (BC) will be valued. Even “are valued” when I connect it to words like “Katrina”

With this in mind, there seems to me nothing wrong from societies viewpoint in a few nuts having the desire to reinvent the wheel. To even support it, or at least allow it. If civilization makes a major mistake in it’s fast leap forward, corrections sometimes involves a step or two backwards, even if temporary. Likewise new modern changes quite often come from a new way to view something we visited long ago, but now see different, such as the most modern surgeons now using flint blade cutting tools. The warmest clothing in the arctic is still fur. We just tan it sew it design arctic expedition clothing it in a modern way.

As it relates to this forum, “a man with a knife is master of a thousand tasks” Any of us could end up in a plane wreck in the wild, lost on a camping trip, broken down in a storm. Everything around us shut down, no power, clean water, stores. Not the end of the world, just real stuff happening in the news every day. Calling 911 or turning to your government may not be possible. We may need to know how to deal with something. Possibly that knowledge will magically kick in as some suggest. We’ll figure it out! We as a race are survivors! Ok, I do not believe in making anyone get knowledge. But what’s wrong with a few people who think they’d like practice, sort of like doing fire drills. Even if the majority feel it’s nonsense. Why should it be ‘illegal’


It has been suggested old ways can simply be fun and sooth our troubled souls. I can agree. I pick up my hand tools and suddenly my headache goes away, blood pressure drops, and I feel sane. I can relate to that thought. Those customers who want a custom knife, often plug into that concept, like hand forged, hand rubbed wood etc. Even as they may want the old technique applied to modern steels.

I agree, some good food for thought in this thread. Thanks everyone else for sharing views.
 
As I've reached the age of 53, I'd say I'm not particularly skilled at dying. I have tried a few times (not purposely) but I'm actually pretty rubbish at it. I might get better as I get older.
 
I think quite quickly you would find people being the jack of all trades our frontier brethren used to be. Now in this world, when someone likes to build, they are put behind autocad, and though they grew up playing with legos, they rarely have a chance to use their hands. The same can be said with the home maker who combined stuff from scratch to bring a delicate portrait to the senses. I remember watching our italian exchange student peel a potato and an apple faster with a knife than I could with a peeler. Its little things like this that made masterjacks of all trades more of a hands on human than we are today. Each person has their specialty and different understanding for how things work, so bringing new things to the table, and of course, old things back to the table, is part of our human story.
 
not2sharp said:
Simple enough, and the principal culprit is environmental... So lets not pretend that this is about sharing information. We are living in a very restrictive society, where we barely have enough elbow room for basic needs, much less archaic crafts.

n2s
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I don't think that it is this simple. The vast majority of land is open in America still. You speak of overcrowding - but I think you have forgotten about states like Iowa, Alaska, Michigan, and the like. In the upper Pennisula of Michigan you better have a full tank of gas - because finding people is generally a spotty thing. I think this is still common for many states.

If you live in an urban area and you only use popular state or federal parks as your dirt time - this would be true. However, there are plenty of states with lots of state land that allow for fires and the like. For instance, a mile from where I grew up is still a massive state forest where any bushcraft skill could be practiced and be within the laws of the state.

_________________

I think what I am speaking about is making the skills known to a person available to other people. For instance, there are many libraries near me that encourage classes to be taught on various topics. I have done three or four on lighting fire without matches. It is always well attended and invariably I get people who just happened to be at the library that day stopping by and learning.

I DO know that if we are not even trying to teach these skills that they will not be passed on from one person to the next.

TF
 
+1:thumbup:
Been staying out of this one long enough; that said, my sons know all I've been able to get through their heads since they were babes, and any one that asks, that truly has the desire, gets what I know for free. What I find is that very few people actually want to know. They ask, and before my sentence is finished, they're asking another. In the end, they walk away on something seemingly more important, like charging their phone. Every once in awhile a young lad is transfixed, that's the one I give my time to.
As for public land, it's everywhere if one looks.
Talfuchre said:
I don't think that it is this simple. The vast majority of land is open in America still. You speak of overcrowding - but I think you have forgotten about states like Iowa, Alaska, Michigan, and the like. In the upper Pennisula of Michigan you better have a full tank of gas - because finding people is generally a spotty thing. I think this is still common for many states.

If you live in an urban area and you only use popular state or federal parks as your dirt time - this would be true. However, there are plenty of states with lots of state land that allow for fires and the like. For instance, a mile from where I grew up is still a massive state forest where any bushcraft skill could be practiced and be within the laws of the state.

_________________

I think what I am speaking about is making the skills known to a person available to other people. For instance, there are many libraries near me that encourage classes to be taught on various topics. I have done three or four on lighting fire without matches. It is always well attended and invariably I get people who just happened to be at the library that day stopping by and learning.

I DO know that if we are not even trying to teach these skills that they will not be passed on from one person to the next.

TF
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mewolf1 said:
What I find is that very few people actually want to know. They ask, and before my sentence is finished, they're asking another. In the end, they walk away on something seemingly more important, like charging their phone. QUOTE]

That is a good way to explain it. If people had hungry bellies for a week or two they would either toss out their ethics to become thieving pirates or buck up, open their ears and start paying attention to anyone who knows something about getting by and taking care of the needs people have all had since time began. Fire, food, water and shelter...not much has really changed and it is still all there to use if you are willing to learn and work.
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The majority only bother to learn what they think is relevant to them at the time. If there is any hallmark of our species, it's that we are persistently short-sighted.

What most think is relevant, and what might actually be useful are not necessarily the same thing.

Though they used to be one and the same - what was relevant was clearly what was also useful to the quality of one's daily existence and at times, one's very survival. But as lifestyles have become more artificial, more insulated and more passive, this gap continually widens. There are those that recognize this, and those that don't. I don't particularly worry much about the latter.
 
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