Teflon vs. Phosphor Bronze washers

[tirod3]

Phosphr bronze is used a lot on vehicles - most bushings in starters, alternators, distributors, etc use bronze instead of a ball or needle bearing. For the price, it delivers great service life, and by the time the bushings in a starter wear out, for example, the commutator and brushes are just about shot, too, so an overhaul was required regardless.

A 50 cent bushing can and will do the job of a $2.50 bearing, but Teflon? Haven't seen much of that unless it's in a can. Teflon can be great stuff, but endurance under heat and pressure isn't a highly touted quality, regardless of the label on a skillet at WalMart.

I consider phosphor bronze to be an indicator of serious quality, teflon, a mass market toy.

 

[brownshoe]

The man that wrote the book on tactical knives, Bob Terzuola, uses nylatron washers. Needs no lubrication. All you do with one of Bob's knives is blow out the dust, never needs oil. If you do oil one of his knives, besides wasting oil you'll atract dirt and make it harder to clean since you can't blow it out. Per Bob, phosphorus bronze washers attracts dirt and needs lubrication and is inferior to nylatron.

 

[STR]

I've used all of them and have had less problems with Nylatron or teflon washers than the PB also referred to as phosphorus bronze washers. Emerson uses Nylatron also and spoke highly of them. I've had several members of the forums send me knives with a lot of surface rusting developing in the pivots and all of them had one thing in common. They all had PB washers in them.



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STR

 

[spidyman]

I've used all of them and have had less problems with Nylatron or teflon washers than the PB also referred to as phosphorus bronze washers. Emerson uses Nylatron also and spoke highly of them. I've had several members of the forums send me knives with a lot of surface rusting developing in the pivots and all of them had one thing in common. They all had PB washers in them.


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STR

Improper care and maintence. Not a byproduct of the type of washer used.

 

[Knivesandgear.com]

I sell knives and I've rarely seen a problem with either but about a month ago I sold a S&W knife 440c steel to a guy and he came back with a broken blade pin. I called S&W (Taylor Cutlery) and they gladly sent me a new pin...but I noticed when replacing the pin that it had nylon washers that were real thin and one had torn in two. So, I'd have to lean towards the bronze like most on this thread.

The nylon seems fast and smooth but with tough use/ or any blade play like in the cheaper knives, the nylon just might not hold up.

 

[UpChUcK]

Double resurrection.... nice!

I prefer my PB folders to my Teflon folders. The Teflon does flex more and are initially 'slipperier' but once the PB 'works in', it is just as slippery and it'll last way longer.

 

[wally@ferguson]

Teflon will hold grit and promote wear. Under heavy use with some side load Teflon will squash and leave space for more grit.

Talked to Lambert at a knife show and he told me he uses Teflon because he can not find bronze in right thickness. He punches out washers from sheet stock.

 

[Ring]

I don't have the numbers handy, but Teflon is slipperier than Phosphor bronze by orders of magnitude. I think it's still the Slipperiest substance known.

But Teflon is also soft. In most knife joint appliations, Teflon washers are going to gall up and be destroyed. They're not durable enough for the application.

The term "self-lubricating" when used to describe Phosphor bronze is a bit misleading. There's no lubricant involved. It's not as if there's somehow oil inside the metal that comes out over time. Different materials are simply slipperier than others. Phosphor bronze just happens to be way on the slippery slide of that scale. The Phosphor Bronze metal is, itself, the lubricant. Plus, it's a hard, durable material and not very expensive.

So, why not just make your car engine out of Phosphor Bronze and do away with all those trips to the Jiffy Lube? Well, as slippery as Phosphor Bronze is, it's no where near as slippery as steel with a layer of good oil on it.

Resurrecting a thread for the 3rd time.....

Phosphor Bronze is indeed self lubricating if its SAE 841..Its is oil impregnated bronze....

I was doing some research for another application and saw this thread...

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

RESURRECTION!!!!!!


Has there since been a material better suited than either of these, also is polishing the tang a worthwhile endevor?

 

[GundaManiac]

I can't speak for polishing the tang, but I polished up the washers on my Buck Vantage (noticed they looked kinda rough and/or scratched), and it did wonders for the smoothness of the action. I didn't polish the tang cuz it looked pretty polished already.

 

[Gunny Bob]

Not all fluoropolymers are created equal and there are many inferior grades of PTFE out there, usually from Chinese, Pakistani, and Indian companies looking to make the least costly knives as possible.

"Teflon" is the brand name of DuPont's polytetrafluoroethylene but they no longer have exclusive rights to its design or manufacture and genuinely crappy stuff has flooded the market, hence some of the questions concerning the properties of the product.

All PTFE is not Teflon, and referring to inferior fluoropolymers as Teflon is akin to calling every knife a "Spyderco" or "Kershaw". And why some folks have good luck with "Teflon" washers while others consider it to be nothing more than another crappy plastic. In my experience, well made Teflon is superior over bronze for the short run, but anything I've worked the life out of fares better with quality bronze.

What is "quality bronze"? Is "Alpha" bronze even better for knife washers? Yikes. Moral of the story being there are few and far between be-all, end-all "best's". Go with Teflon if the knife isn't going to be hard use and your everyday carry for eternity. Otherwise, good bronze isn't a bad recommendation.

 

[cutter17]

The only thing I know is, and I have probably already posted this on this thread, that PB washers work much better for me. I tend to keep a tight pivot, anal issue, and have found that teflon will compress and deform, and maybe even tear with opening and closing. PB doesn't do this. It is harder initially to open, but with some wear it becomes very smooth.

 

[misterjuiceman]

I've used all of them and have had less problems with Nylatron or teflon washers than the PB also referred to as phosphorus bronze washers. Emerson uses Nylatron also and spoke highly of them. I've had several members of the forums send me knives with a lot of surface rusting developing in the pivots and all of them had one thing in common. They all had PB washers in them.



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STR

could this be because of a galvanic reaction from the Ti+PB+steel?

 

[znapschatz]

I can't speak for polishing the tang, but I polished up the washers on my Buck Vantage (noticed they looked kinda rough and/or scratched), and it did wonders for the smoothness of the action. I didn't polish the tang cuz it looked pretty polished already.

Are the Vantage washers PB or other?

 

[Nico01]

I've had the teflon washers in a leatherman knife fold up and negate its entire purpose. So I would say that even if the teflon is smoother, which it may be, it runs the risk of failure if it is poorly engineered or implemented.

Also, my BM has bronze washers. With a bit of use (ie. playing with the lock), its become really smooth. The other day, I took them out and burnished the washers on some brown paper (has about the equivalent of 2500 grit, I use it as a final burnishing in woodworking) and added a bit of chain lube (I find it works better than white lithium grease without attracting much dirt). My knife now opens so smoothly, I would swear theres a ball bearing in there (which of course means I play with it even more often).

 

[GundaManiac]

The Vantage I was talking about has phosphor bronze washers. Current Vantages are switching over to Nylatron. My 2011 Vantage Force uses Nylatron washers.

 

[misterjuiceman]

I've had the teflon washers in a leatherman knife fold up and negate its entire purpose. So I would say that even if the teflon is smoother, which it may be, it runs the risk of failure if it is poorly engineered or implemented.

Also, my BM has bronze washers. With a bit of use (ie. playing with the lock), its become really smooth. The other day, I took them out and burnished the washers on some brown paper (has about the equivalent of 2500 grit, I use it as a final burnishing in woodworking) and added a bit of chain lube (I find it works better than white lithium grease without attracting much dirt). My knife now opens so smoothly, I would swear theres a ball bearing in there (which of course means I play with it even more often).

you definitely need the teflon and nylatron to be appropriately sized. If it's sufficiently thick this shouldn't be an issue. I think for a knife that won't be maintained very much, and will see hard use, nylatron or teflon is the way to go, since you won't have the potential for galvanic corrosion. I also believe they will need to be lubricated less.

 

[TheCarbideRat]

I second that teflon gives makers more room for error, seen it.

 

[Mo2]

what knives have people successfully switch over from Teflon to phosphorus bronze and did you have to thin them out some to make it work well?

anyone try it on a Jason Guthrie scout?

I prefer pb, if you can't already tell. the handful of Teflon folders I have, the Teflon is my only major peev in them. the bokers plus exskeluber 1 decade edition (liner lock version) is the only one that's great opening, but Im thinking about converting it also.

 

[wilsonj1018]

Nice necro, I tend to switch every knife I get over if applicable. It's simple, measure and order or use what you have on hand. Dmt stones for thinning and polish to mirrors on paper and leather.