Tell if A Contractor Is Truthful About His Installation Of Bathroom Tile & Window

[st8yd]

Bingo. Thanks.
Some of you guys are clearly in the trade or well versed. That akward moment is coming---letting him know that he is relieved of his duties and we will not be making that final payment--including the fact that he could take us to court for his $1800. I haven't figured out if I should notify him in writing (which can come back to haunt), by phone, or through a third party AND what is the best thing to say. I suppose I would pay him the difference if the completion of the job were under $1800.

Also, do we notify him before or after we have the repair?

This is actually going to be the worst part.

As I am a general contractor and know most of the fields as well or better than the subs, this I will have to bow out of, fortunately I havn't been there with lawyers and such.

Personally if I had made a mistake I want the oppertunity to fix it. I don't comprehend incompetence, but I do understand you not wanting to allow him back if he's incompetent of doing the job.

My only advice is to do it as amicable as possible.

Yes if you can get it fixed for less and maybe a little something for your time/aggrevation then you would owe him the difference.

Different areas have different ways they require this to go about legally. Your best bet is to find someone in your area familiar with these situations. Some contracts state how these are supposed to be handled.

 

[cj65]

I would ask the contractor to subcontract someone to finish this that knows what they are doing. Ask him to hire someone to do it right, that does windows in bathrooms. Leave the window, rip out the trim, and finish from there. All is not lost, let reasonable heads prevail.

 

[annr]

I would ask the contractor to subcontract someone to finish this that knows what they are doing. Ask him to hire someone to do it right, that does windows in bathrooms. Leave the window, rip out the trim, and finish from there. All is not lost, let reasonable heads prevail.

I considered this option. However, he denies a problem exists and I've lost faith in him. The deal breaker is now knowing that he looked me in the eye and either: is ignorant, incompetent or lying-- or all of the above.I would not trust him to hire a competent sub because he does not seem able to tell the difference.
BTW: We contacted him last week and asked him to come over. We wanted to SHOW him our concerns: our problems were not limited exclusively to the caulking. His fix is add more caulking. I don't know what is the matter with him........and this would be his 4th bite at the apple ( He started the job Feb. 9).

 

[Jeff E]

If he tries to take you to court, it is best to have as much documentation as possible. Photos, letters, emails, and a written report from a competent contractor stating why the job he did is of poor workmanship and an improper installation.

 

[annr]

If he tries to take you to court, it is best to have as much documentation as possible. Photos, letters, emails, and a written report from a competent contractor stating why the job he did is of poor workmanship and an improper installation.

Welcome to the forums! I sure hope it wouldn't get to this point, but the only way to make a compelling argument: evidence, yup. The funny thing is that we both agree our 'rejection' would come as a surprise. I believe that he has been that tone-deaf or maybe he is not well. He is always pleasant and enthusiastic, disarmingly so. In retrospect he did whatever he wanted without respect to the outcome or our written or verbal requests. Why would he make more work for himself? It's not logical. He is nearly a septuagenarian and I have sincerely wondered if he weren't well--in the memory, cognitive department. Not looking forward to it!

 

[annr]

alot of guys try to just use the vinyl-- it could be ok if addiotal waterproofing steps were taken-- like the window to stud connection being wrapped in a WP membrane-- but the tiling solution always looks best.

I reread this post now realize that this is what he was talking about. His position was that in order to tile up to the window he would need to add the WP mebrane and this was not possible with old construction, there wasn't enough room.
Therefore, the vinyl was the better option in terms of being waterproof. In fact, that is false? He NEEDED the WP membrane with the vinyl and not with the tile. Or there are other options? (The reason I'm clarifying is that we are going to speak with him in the next 1-2 days.)

Also, he did not get a building permit. The MA site says that permits are required for: demolition, sheetrock/wallboard and window install/replace. How big a deal is it that he did not get a permit? Does this give me any leverage?

 

[richard j]

a permit is needed before any work can be done if the laws there are the same as they are here. you have him by the ........

 

[st8yd]

With a frame wall a wp membrane would be best either way. If anything I would worry about it less with the vinyl (less joints to leak). I believe he was just trying to pull the wool over your eyes knowing that you didn't know any difference.

I started to mention the permit issue earlier but decided not to get into that can of worms. They typically have no jurisdiction over poor workmanship. Probably more often than not small jobs like this technically require a permit but done without.
Yes this could give you some leverage. In FL the penalty is dble the permit fee, and I'm sure repeat offenders can get more I don't recall. But it could still cause him a lot of headaches. If a permit wasn't pulled the contract may not be able to be enforced.

 

[annr]

With a frame wall a wp membrane would be best either way. If anything I would worry about it less with the vinyl (less joints to leak). I believe he was just trying to pull the wool over your eyes knowing that you didn't know any difference.

I started to mention the permit issue earlier but decided not to get into that can of worms. They typically have no jurisdiction over poor workmanship. Probably more often than not small jobs like this technically require a permit but done without.
Yes this could give you some leverage. In FL the penalty is dble the permit fee, and I'm sure repeat offenders can get more I don't recall. But it could still cause him a lot of headaches. If a permit wasn't pulled the contract may not be able to be enforced.

I was wondering if he ordered the wrong size window (or didn't care to adjust the size) and that is why he could not use the WP membrane? He made it sound like a matter of fit--not having enough space. He also represented that the 'tile up to the window' option would only hold for about 10 years and then cause water problems.

----------------

It's unclear how the permit question helps or hurts us now or in the future, but we are checking. As us suggest it may nullify the enforcablity of the contract.

I reviewed the contract and there was no mention of casing. Does it seem reasonable to assume that he would not install casing, but rather cement board tile, grout and caulking? He cites:
-Remove existing window and install new vinyl replacement window (harvey or equal) and seal tight.
-Clean and remove all contaminants of surface of tub area. Apply clear sealer over exposed exterior of tub.
-Remove all tile and backer board and tile in tub area (two side walls and back wall) down to studs
-Install new cement board over same area where tile was removed.
-Install new 4"x4" white tile (same or equal as existing tile) over new cement board and grout with white finish
-Sand down ceiling and wall outside tub area in upstairs bath.
-Cover same sanded areas with low VOC primer and complete with low VOC with semi-gloss finish
-Remove and dispose of debris

 

[st8yd]

More than likely a window could have been special ordered to fit just right, but this is typically a pain, One you have to find out what exactly is there which requires a small amount of demo ahead of time, two its typically substantially more to special order.

Normally there is something close enough to make work, Properly.

You mentioned you showed him a picture what you wanted the tile around the window to look like and he didn't mention anything about the vinyl verbally or in contract so, its only natural you would expect it to look similar to your pic.

 

[annr]

More than likely a window could have been special ordered to fit just right, but this is typically a pain, One you have to find out what exactly is there which requires a small amount of demo ahead of time, two its typically substantially more to special order.

Normally there is something close enough to make work, Properly.

You mentioned you showed him a picture what you wanted the tile around the window to look like and he didn't mention anything about the vinyl verbally or in contract so, its only natural you would expect it to look similar to your pic.

This was a special order, no demo in advance, and his worker commented on how expensive the window was. He did all of the work except the window--we had to wait 2 weeks for the window to arrive. Clearly wood casing is not mentioned (style, color of paint, etc.). After he got things off in the wrong direction I told him that I expected the tile to meet the vinyl window, not extraneous grout in lieu of tile but I admitted that I didn't know how this is done.
Thanks, all of this information is useful. I want to make the strongest argument and work amicably as you suggest.

 

[annr]

I want to follow our conversation with an email expressing our dissatisfaction and concerns, accompanied by some photos. (Perhaps he will see things more objectively at his computer.)
My earlier photos weren't too good. Are these any better? as documentation?

 

[st8yd]

Those pictures are much better. There's no reason the tile couldn't have returned into the window.

I meant to mention this earlier, being concerned about the tile to window joint sealing sufficiently.........Caulk It! Just don't let the same guy do the caulking.

It amazes me what people try to pass off.

 

[annr]

We are still trying to resolve this problem and unfortunately haven't been able to get anyone else to look at the job, so....we are stuck with our contractor for the time being. There are two more things that I don't know enough about and thought maybe some of you could tell me what I need to know so that this guy doesn't try to pull the wool over my eyes again.
This is how he left the exterior of the window (left) and I don't know if this can be fixed with caulking and flashing or if he should do something more (that he likely will try to avoid if it is difficult). I labeled what I note is wrong, but there may be more. The image on the right is what the other windows look like.

BTW When I asked him about it, he said that the missing bits had probably fallen between the siding and the house.

 

[st8yd]

Wow, he left that as a finished product.:thumbdn:
"Fallen between the siding and the house" BULL S**T

Even the original doesn't appear to have been done right, when the house was re-sided.

It appears the fin on the window is recessed in the framed opening?

Here are the basics of what you need done at this point, fortunately the top of the window is at the overhang so the only potential water that will get in at the header is if you wash the house.

Using painted aluminum flashing for the following
Need to put a piece of flashing in at the bottom, this will be the most difficult piece under the circumstances, and to difficult to describe since I'm not standing there in person.
Then the sides need to go on allowing water to shed over the sill piece, and also extend beyond top of window.
Then header piece.
These pieces need to extend under the siding as far as possible.
Apply this with caulk, NO EXPOSED FASTENERS.
Caulk edge along window and against back edge of vinyl J
I would recomend that the long edges abutting the window have a hem, this will give it more rigidity and help it lay flat along its length vs wavy.

You may want to fill the large void at the bottom with spray foam.

 

[annr]

Wow, he left that as a finished product.:thumbdn:
"Fallen between the siding and the house" BULL S**T

Even the original doesn't appear to have been done right, when the house was re-sided.

Yeah, I'm pretty, BULL S**TED about the whole thing. I follow your reply and need to study it. I am sending him these photos and asking for a written response about how he intends to fix it.

How urgent is this repair? (I really would like to find someone else.)

 

[st8yd]

How urgent is this repair? (I really would like to find someone else.)

Well it only leaks when it rains, so if it's not raining I wouldn't worry about it. If its raining well

 

[annr]

Well it only leaks when it rains, so if it's not raining I wouldn't worry about it. If its raining well

OK. That is what I thought, duh! But he would have some magical explanation about it. And it has been raining like crazy!!!

Hypothetical: could this cause water damage to the bathroom below? (I don't know where this type of leak goes.) Since this half-job we are seeing MORE water damage in the downstairs bathroom. Originally there were a few spots, confined to one corner of the ceiling and wall adjacent to the window. Now the wall above the window (and more) are showing signs of water damage.

 

[st8yd]

I forgot to mention earlier, when it gets caulk don't use the cheap stuff. There are several good one's, I've been using QuadSeal by OSI lately and have been pleased with it.

You could easily put a piece of plastic over the window and prevent any further damage until its properly repaired.

As far as damage below, just depends on how much water is gettin in and whether or not it is staying on the outside of the sub sheathing or channelling on inside. It will not be rotting yet but could be causing other potential damge to drywall, etc.

But it may not be leaking enough to do anything.

The damage their could've already been done to the same reason you had this work done to start with, and its just now rearing it's head.

 

[annr]

The damage their could've already been done to the same reason you had this work done to start with, and its just now rearing it's head.

Thanks for the information and good idea on the plastic.

I know causality/time line with water damage is hard to prove, and he would only accept the possibility that it is pre-existing. However, his tile 'repair' took place Feb 9-11 , so I felt that by late April all of the damage would have made itself known....and not progress.

Given interior and exterior problems, it sounds like the exterior problem should take priority in terms of repair?