Tell me about Schatt & Morgan

A

addylo

Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
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Howdy, all.

When learning about a new interest I tend to categorize things so my first order of business in researching slip joints has been to learn about the different brands and assign them a "pecking order", if you will, when it comes to quality and desirability (I won't try to post my ordered list here since it would probably spark holy wars).

One brand I have not been able to figure out yet is Schatt & Morgan. I know they are made by Queen but I rarely see anything mentioned about them here. I think one thing that throws me is their use of what I consider less-than-ideal steels (e.g. 420 or even 420HC). I know they make some in D2 and 1095 but 420?

So, what is the general opinion about Schatt & Morgan? Great, good or "move on, nothing to see here"?
 
S&M is sort of the collector-grade Queen. Unusual, old-fashioned patterns. Like Case, they use mostly 420HC I think for its ease of working and polishing and corrosion resistance. The File & Wire series had main blades of ATS34.

They are nice knives, typically well made, although in the not to distant past suffered from some of Queen's general QC mishaps.

I think they were pretty unapologetically marketed or aimed at the safe queen collectors. With the advent of GEC, that whole perception of the market has probably changed.

Remains to be seen what the Daniels folks will do with the brand.

Nothing wrong with them though. If you see a knife you like, might research what, if any, defects are typical and see if that runs you off. Otherewise go for it.

Used to see a lot more discussion of S&M here before two things: GEC and the turmoil with the Queen brand (independently owned >> Ontario >> Back to independently owned. I'm not even sure theyve had a new model for a couple of years.
 
Generally, the quality is fine. A step up in materials and finish from a standard Queen, but I find them overpriced considering the blade steel used.

Best-of-the-Best from Queen is the File & Wire series, also from the Schatt and Morgan line. In the past the F&W series has been made with premium steel, ATS-34, and priced accordingly. Build quality is on par with Great Eastern in my experience, and priced at the same level.

assign them a "pecking order", if you will, when it comes to quality and desirability (I won't try to post my ordered list here since it would probably spark holy wars).
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At the risk of starting a war, ;) here are the Queen brands in order or quality with a few other brands thrown in for reference and perspective. As always, YMMV.

Case
I
Queen
I
Schrade Old Timers
I
German-made Boker traditionals
I
Queen Schatt and Morgan
I
Canal Street Cutlery
I
Great Eastern Cutlery
I
Queen Schatt and Morgan File & Wire​

You could also work in a few other Queen brands, like the Heritage series or the Queen City runs. Although I was happy with mine, the Heritage series received some mixed reviews, an obviously inconsistent level of quality. The Queen City knife of mine is one of the nice jigged bone runs (Queen City brand has been used on multiple and supposedly dissimilar product lines) and is on par with Great Eastern and the File & Wire knives.
 
Bob W said:
I find them overpriced considering the blade steel used.
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That is exactly my concern. Coming from the modern folder arena I don't have too high of an opinion of 420 (in any flavor). And as you said, that steel is used by Case so paying twice the price is questionable. I guess handle material and F&F are the other factors there but...

Thanks for the replies, gents.

EDIT: Interesting that you put Schrade OT ahead of Queen. I'll have to pay more attention to them.
 
addylo said:
Howdy, all.



One brand I have not been able to figure out yet is Schatt & Morgan.
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Yeah, me either.

Cool name, good looking knives, just mediocre quality knives in my admittedly limited experience.
The ones I have owned (5-6 knives) were made between 2008 and 2011.
 
Mark summed it up pretty well. S&M makes some really unique and interesting patterns that you don't see from other makers. I own about a dozen of the F&W series. I can point out minor flaws in almost all of them, but it general, all the ones I own are of acceptable quality for the price I paid. I just recently bought my first keystone S&M, made in 2009 - and the fit and finish is absolutely perfect. If you see an S&M pattern that really appeals to you, give them a try. But, in general, you should not expect the same level of fit and finish than you get from GEC, or even Case.

Adam
 
addylo said:
EDIT: Interesting that you put Schrade OT ahead of Queen. I'll have to pay more attention to them.
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Just to clarify, I am referring to the original USA-made Schrade Old Timer knives. Excellent 1095 steel, and very good build quality with an unusually high level of consistency.
In general Queen has prettier handles, but their quality isn't as consistent and their standard "QueenSteel" is 420 stainless.
That's why I ranked the Old Timers higher. Again, covering my butt, YMMV.
 
The ones I own are sorry excuses for pocket knives.
Dull, sluggish action, poor fit n finish, and overpriced.
The Daniels family may be able to turn this around but I won't go near another S&M until they make some serious changes.
Much better slip joints for the $ out there.
 
I've had a few of the ATS34 and D2 Schatt and Morgans, but traded those pretty quick. Nothing wrong that I remember, I just have the trading afflliction.

The only Schatt and Morgans I have now are the Heritage series premium stockman, single blade spear jack and two blade spear jack. All three are very pretty knives, but have loose springs, poor walk and talk and came with poor edges. I just forced patinas on them and carried them. I would not say they are Heritage perfect, but they are nice knives, the jacks anyway. I have heard of numerous issues with the cattleman/stockman series, moreso than mine.

This was pre Daniels acquisition.
 
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Here's one of Charlies SFO harness jacks in 1095. Wonderful F & F and sharp as a razor out of the box. Great coloured bone jigged beautifully.

Best regards

Robin
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I'm not here to argue, but I'm curious what factors you considered when typing out your list? Mainly I wonder if you're talking about the brand's knives as a whole, as in all of them including discontinued and vintage knives, or the current production. Thank you for your time....-Kirby :)

Bob W said:
Generally, the quality is fine. A step up in materials and finish from a standard Queen, but I find them overpriced considering the blade steel used.

Best-of-the-Best from Queen is the File & Wire series, also from the Schatt and Morgan line. In the past the F&W series has been made with premium steel, ATS-34, and priced accordingly. Build quality is on par with Great Eastern in my experience, and priced at the same level.


At the risk of starting a war, ;) here are the Queen brands in order or quality with a few other brands thrown in for reference and perspective. As always, YMMV.

Case
I
Queen
I
Schrade Old Timers
I
German-made Boker traditionals
I
Queen Schatt and Morgan
I
Canal Street Cutlery
I
Great Eastern Cutlery
I
Queen Schatt and Morgan File & Wire​

You could also work in a few other Queen brands, like the Heritage series or the Queen City runs. Although I was happy with mine, the Heritage series received some mixed reviews, an obviously inconsistent level of quality. The Queen City knife of mine is one of the nice jigged bone runs (Queen City brand has been used on multiple and supposedly dissimilar product lines) and is on par with Great Eastern and the File & Wire knives.
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Not to highjack my own thread but a "pecking order" thread would be interesting. But as you suggest, it would get very complicated due to significant differences in companies quality over the years due to them being bought, sold, and remade.
 
silenthunterstudios said:
The only Schatt and Morgans I have now are the Heritage series premium stockman, single blade spear jack and two blade spear jack. All three are great knives, but have loose springs, poor walk and talk and came with poor edges.
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In your estimation, what makes them "great"...?

~ P.
 
I own two S&M knives (a Shiner Pint and a Heritage Jack). No issues with fit or finish on either of mine, and for what it's worth, the Heritage Jack is one of my absolute favorite knives.
 
pertinux said:
In your estimation, what makes them "great"...?

~ P.
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Yeah, doesn't make much sense. I have to change that. They look great. These knives just have that cool factor looking at pics of them, or looking at them in hand. They feel good in the hand, or feel as good as a slipjoint can. Easy to manipulate. The walk and talk could be better, on my two blade Heritage jack, the pen blade is just about perfect, but the main blade wobbles like a drunk sailor on shore leave. The spring on the pen blade is fine, but the spring on the main blade dips deep below the frame when in the half stop position. The lines are clean on all three. The single blade spear jack has developed spring issues similar to the two blade, but not as bad. For the most part, it is the best out of the three. All three needed to be resharpened out of the box, but could cut paracord. The half stops on the stockman are barely there, not as pronounced as on the other jacks. The springs are not an issue yet.

So, they are beautiful knives, the single spear taking the mantle of best made piece. I really like the two blade jack, and was hoping it's "inner workings" matched the beauty of it's exterior. I have carried all of them over time, but while they are pretty to look at, they do not fit the ideal of a Heritage series knife. I still like the way they look. I sent the two blade jack in for the spring issue, but was told that it was within specs, and the guys in the factory thought it wouldn't break. I'll use it and hope it doesn't break, I already bought it. Might as well enjoy it.
 
Case
I
Queen
I
Schrade Old Timers
I
German-made Boker traditionals
I
Queen Schatt and Morgan
I
Canal Street Cutlery
I
Great Eastern Cutlery
I
Queen Schatt and Morgan File & Wire​


9blades said:
I'm not here to argue, but I'm curious what factors you considered when typing out your list? Mainly I wonder if you're talking about the brand's knives as a whole, as in all of them including discontinued and vintage knives, or the current production. Thank you for your time....-Kirby :)
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Trust me, I understand the limitations and problems with creating such a list. But I based it on my own overall impressions of build quality and consistency, with emphasis on my most recent buying experiences.

Maybe it's not obvious, but I worked from low to high, with the best quality at the bottom. Perhaps that was confusing?
 
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I like the Heritage series in carbon, but they did not meet my expectations with regard to finish.:o

As Dan remarks, they look great have really nice shields, wood and bone handles. But...edges were poor (that can be recified OK) quite gappy and the Woodsman in bone has some very lethargic 'snap' Such a pity as it COULD be an outstanding series, but they fell short too often. The company is of course under new ownership so improvements must be hoped for.

The stainless Keystone series are pretty knives with often good bone but they don't strike me as really user types. The ones I have also sport unwelcome gaps and some have play. You certainly can get better for less.

In fact, I've always found the 'standard' Queen knives in D2 to be superior in fit&finish and they cost a load less, plus you get D2 steel which once sharp is superb for pocket-knives, in my view at least.

The older Schatt knives are a very different matter, some really lovely examples with fine finish can still be found but obviously, they're costly.

As for a 'pecking-order' in Traditionals, it's enticing&amusing but always subjective - sheer healthy bias!

GEC
Queen
Böker Germany
CASE
RR
Canal St.
Former Nothwoods
:D:D
 
willgoy said:
As for a 'pecking-order' in Traditionals, it's enticing&amusing but always subjective - sheer healthy bias!

GEC
Queen
Böker Germany
CASE
RR
Canal St.
Former Nothwoods
:D:D
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Not subjective at all, you're just wrong. :D

;) :D ;)
 
As far as Schatt & Morgan goes, I find their fit and finish to be amazing but the knife I had by them had a pretty bad edge out of box. I had the 1196 in stag bone, gorgeous knife with amazing F&F, but that edge man. Ew.
 
Series I, II, and III in the File & Wire S&Ms are about as good as factory pocket knives get. Terrific bone, ATS-34 steel and wonderful F&F and W&T. 2008 to about 2012 is when Queen/S&M were at their lowest quality. The Daniels' are turning things around now, but may take a little time to come up to the former standard.
 
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