Tell me about Schatt & Morgan

I own several S&M knives and have sold/traded even more. The only consistent issue they have is complete lack of a working edge. Until recently, GEC had the same problem though.

For me, GEC and Canal Street are putting out the highest quality traditionals right now. Canal Street doesnt get a lot of press around here but they make some fine cutlery

Case can knock it out of the park frequently as well, but im a little irritated with them at the moment as the gappiest knife I own is a Case select knife. Might be the first one I have ever had to send in for woek.
 
JustinR said:
For me, GEC and Canal Street are putting out the highest quality traditionals right now. Canal Street doesnt get a lot of press around here but they make some fine cutlery
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As much as I am really impressed with the offerings from GEC these days, I would love to see Canal St. really give them a run for their money by offering more patterns and interesting combinations. They seem to be very well-made, great looking knives, but their offerings are pretty limited and don't seem to change much, and that's where GEC has it nailed.

As for S&M? They look great from a distance, but I haven't been impressed with them up close.
 
I picked up a massive F&W ATS-34 Swaybelly Clasp knife (had a very minuscule, but deep mark on the spring that was a flaw). And must say fit and finish were appealing, and the Keystones I've seen, weren't (if you kept an open mind about 420HC) bad, but in fact impressive. I like S&M, and do think Queen, and S&M are on the right track. I like my S&M, but many here are die hard GEC fans, and it's understandable, they sort of dominate in that price range. I like all sorts of brands, I personally think a number of S&M (at least the ones I've had/seen) were comparable to GEC. Well there was a 5 blade S&M I saw that wasn't up to par, and very expensive.
 
I guess part of my bias when it comes to assigning "pecking order" is in the steels. Schatt & Morgan's 420 is just one example. For another, I ran across a beautiful Canal Street Moon Pie Trapper for around $100. Cocobolo, nice silver bolsters, 2 blades. Then I notice it's done in 440C.

Now I know that's not uncommon in the slip joint world, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with 440C. But coming from the modern folder arena where emphasis is always on the latest high-tech steels I have a real hard time justifying $100 for 440C.
 
Smithhammer said:
As much as I am really impressed with the offerings from GEC these days, I would love to see Canal St. really give them a run for their money by offering more patterns and interesting combinations. They seem to be very well-made, great looking knives, but their offerings are pretty limited and don't seem to change much, and that's where GEC has it nailed.

As for S&M? They look great from a distance, but I haven't been impressed with them up close.
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Agreed. Ive been lobbying for a serpentine jack for a while now. GEC has everyone beat in the variety department right now.

addylo said:
I guess part of my bias when it comes to assigning "pecking order" is in the steels. Schatt & Morgan's 420 is just one example. For another, I ran across a beautiful Canal Street Moon Pie Trapper for around $100. Cocobolo, nice silver bolsters, 2 blades. Then I notice it's done in 440C.

Now I know that's not uncommon in the slip joint world, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with 440C. But coming from the modern folder arena where emphasis is always on the latest high-tech steels I have a real hard time justifying $100 for 440C.
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Canal Street semed to use 420 more so in the past. All my recent purchases from them have been in D2 or latrobes version of 154cm.
 
I have a single spear Heritage jack in ebony. It's a nice looking and faily large single blade. The fit and finish on this one is pretty good. The finish on the blade is not as highly polished or even as a GEC or Case. A minor gripe for me since patina will mask those imperfections. I purchased it second hand for a modest discount over new.
The pull is soft compared to Great Eastern or Case. (GEC has certainly spoiled me here.) Maybe a 4 on the pull scale. Walk and talk is good with a positive half stop. It would make a great knife for someone who would benefit from a lighter pull. Here is a pic from when it was new to me.

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black mamba said:
Series I, II, and III in the File & Wire S&Ms are about as good as factory pocket knives get. Terrific bone, ATS-34 steel and wonderful F&F and W&T. 2008 to about 2012 is when Queen/S&M were at their lowest quality. The Daniels' are turning things around now, but may take a little time to come up to the former standard.
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Agreed. They really had it nailed for a while with those earlier runs. Here's to hoping things can get back to that level.
 
addylo said:
Then I notice it's done in 440C.

Now I know that's not uncommon in the slip joint world, and I know there's nothing inherently wrong with 440C. But coming from the modern folder arena where emphasis is always on the latest high-tech steels I have a real hard time justifying $100 for 440C.
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But you aren't paying $100 for a piece of sharpened 440C. You are paying $100.00 for the fit & finish, the beautiful cocobolo covers, and the precision hand fitting that is the heart of a traditional knife.

I have modern folders. Trust me, I know quite a bit about edge retention of various alloys.
 
Bob W said:
Not subjective at all, you're just wrong. :D

;) :D ;)
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Yeah, but wrong is the new right:cool::D:thumbup:


That Ebony Spear that Brian showed is a good example of what I mean about really nice shields etc. I have the same in Rosewood and the Ebony with Clip. The pull is for fans of the lighter style it's true but the snap on these wood patterns is very good. Blades are thick so slicing is a bit compromised. But, get a good one, get it tuned to your liking and you've got a beautiful user for sure. I like the Norway iron bolster and liners, no brass:thumbup:
 
worm groove shiner 3rd from top-nothing wrong with it at all and its beautiful.
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Two of my favourites here, Meako ! Queen Mountain Man (guessing from the handle...first at top) and the Kentucky Shiner Pint, a gorgeous little knife. I was lucky, mine (F&W Series VI) is a flawless knife in all regards : no play, strong spring & snap, walks and talks like it should, no gaps, sharp, ATS 34 blade. Pure happiness. So, I was very excited at the launch of its big brother, the Quart, and ordered one as soon as it was available. I was as disappointed by the Quart as I was delighted by the Pint, go figure... The knife I received was just not acceptable : the back square had been so badly ground the closed blade was allowed to fall open by 1/4". Sent back and got a new one. This one worked well but had a (funny ?) finishing flaw : the burnt stag scales are very deeply grooved which looks great and gives a very good grip... but the shield peeks out by 1/10" over a groove !!! (Ridiculous er... funny) The actually disappointing part, though, was the design of the knife itself : it's a full 3.3/4" blade and the pivot area is slimmer than that of the Pint (2.3/4") ! As a result, there's noticeable flex in this area when doing slightly heavier cutting than (soft) cheese. Turns out to be my most expensive knife (with sending it back to the US and paying twice the custom fees) and I don't use it. Someone said they were thought as collector's items. Must be true for this one. But it's a shame as there are not many brands that keep these beautiful old patterns alive. And alive means working, in my book. I will buy S&M again anytime, but over the counter and hands on.

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(For scale, the Northfield Wharncliffe Houndstooth (another splendid little knife) below is 1" shorter than the Pint).
 
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I love S&M's. They have a classic old world look that seems to be lacking in a lot of other traditionals. Most of mine did not have great edges out of the factory, but a few minutes of sharpening sorts them out.

Here are a few of mine……….

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I really liked the idea behind their heritage series. I oogled over a few, but the reports about F&F just kept me away. It's a shame too. Loved the ideas.
 
I consider them fine quality users
The heat treat on the 420HC is spot on
It sharpens well without a soft burr and holds an edge very well
The ATS-34 is excellent


F&W Series 4 Cotton Sampler Moss Bone


Horticulture S&M 2007
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Congress S&M 2006
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Whittler Warnie S&M 2008
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S&M Peanut Stag
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Dan Burke Warncliff Whittler
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Queen lost its way and the last S&M Heritage series was not up to snuff
But the price point was okay for the quality
The carbon is great, and they are solid users

But Queen is a good quality knife at a very good price point
Their Economy line in carbon and delrin for $35 are the best priced knives on the market
And the Workline for $45 are also excellent
The Premium line in D2 in bone or wood are good and the D2 is excellent
Just need to sharpen them.....

Not buying slippies now
so I do not know the current quality after the takeover
 
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The diminishing relevance of the S&M brand is due to several factors touched on in this thread. But it has really made me contemplate the revolution that GEC hath wrought.

When I got back into knives maybe 10 years ago, S&M were kind of the pinnacle and only the very hard core would purchase one as a user due to the cost and beauty I guess. I may be wrong, but I had the definite impression that most S&Ms were safe queens. You sure didn't see any with patina or, more appropriately, scratches on the Exchange.

GEC, at a similar price point and fit/finish/beauty (and serialized and whatnot), probably sells half users or more. It's kind of fascinating. I truly think the choice of 1095 for the steel just exploded and erased the line between safe queen and user.
 
GEC has spoiled us with good quality.
Thank god.
It's difficult to spend nearly $100 on a S&M that doesn't compare.
I remember thinking how nice my S&M (keystone series) looked on the website photo and how upset I was when it arrived.
The fact that it was poorly sharpened was not a problem, but the huge gaps, sluggish action, and the bulk of the knife was pathetic.
I would like to see some pics of newer S&M models, along with opinions.
 
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